01-21-2005, 01:02 PM | #21 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-21-2005 at 01:07 PM. |
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01-21-2005, 01:11 PM | #22 | |
Fëanorophobic
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01-21-2005, 01:24 PM | #23 | |
Elf Lord
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And your comment on Christians interpreting charity differently, well, that actually helps with my point. While yes, there are standards/bases of belief in each religion, they are all so open to interpretation, no two people agree on every single aspect. We all perceive the world differently, we all perceive faith and spirituality differently.
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01-21-2005, 01:28 PM | #24 | ||
Elf Lord
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But enough agreeing: I disagree about Law. It is nothing of the sort. Quote:
We have laws, and we may have moral reasons for having them, and they may well embody aspects of our morality, but morals themselves don't exist outside of our heads. We can only be said to have a "group-defined morality" insofar as we can negotiate them with our peers. Once agreed (or rather, learned, since so much is embedded in our respective culture as you point out), each person relates differently and inconsistently to the agreed "group morality" (or else why do people exceed the speed limit but still think of themselves as a "good person"). The strength of religion, as I said, has been in mediating this communication. From a social anthropological perspective, religion facilitates the negotiation, agreement and implementation of collective morality. Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-21-2005 at 01:30 PM. |
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01-21-2005, 01:37 PM | #25 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-21-2005, 01:43 PM | #26 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-21-2005, 01:43 PM | #27 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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01-21-2005, 01:55 PM | #28 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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This is a different branch from the last few posts, but as concerns your original post, Beren, it made me think of a quote that goes something like this: "The glory of God is man fully alive."
I think true Christanity is the highest promoter of individualism. We just started up a new group in our church called "Women in Christ". It's basically some women who have been Christians for awhile talking about various topics. I was asked to be on the leadership team, and after attending the preliminary meeting, I agreed to join, because I love how they're handling it - basically, "we know you ladies personally, we've seen your life and your love of God and others, and we'd like you to share your life experience and thoughts on various topics HOWEVER YOU WANT TO." They're leaving it totally up to us. We all went around and shared our backgrounds, and it is so cool to see all the diversity! Yet we all have in common the belief that Christianity as expressed in the Bible is the true state of the universe. Now one lady might share by telling funny stories, another by sharing a story that brings us to tears, another by singing some songs, another by more traditional teaching. We are being given total freedom, and the diversity, even within our common beliefs, is just glorious! Anyway, just some thoughts on the subject of "religion and individualism". I think I'm seeing it at its best in this program. (and btw, Christians, please pray for me this Sunday - it's my turn to talk, and I'm a little nervous! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-21-2005, 01:57 PM | #29 | |||
Elf Lord
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01-21-2005, 01:58 PM | #30 | |||||
Fëanorophobic
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01-21-2005, 02:06 PM | #31 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-21-2005, 02:11 PM | #32 | ||||
Fëanorophobic
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Last edited by Beren3000 : 01-21-2005 at 02:15 PM. |
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01-21-2005, 02:19 PM | #33 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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So individually - we are not looking at the survival of the human race - as much as we are looking at our own survival. It then manifests itself as the survival of the whole race. I might be wrong in what you mean here - at first I thought you were saying that we have "shall not kill" to protect society. Now I think that you mean that the "shall not kill" is there because it was recognized that by having that - it might protect themselves. Having said that - "cruelty to animals" is a moral issue. Whether we say that animals should not be tortured or not - has nothng to do with a fear of what they might do to us. We are the stronger species - because we have tools that make us that. But the morality of society says that we should not set an animal on fire alive and of course that goes then with particular animals more so than others. No one see anything wrong with setting out rat poison to kill a rat - but then see what the societies response will be if you did that with a dog or cat (even if there is a stray dog problem). Socity has again determined that it is morally okay to do certain things to certain beings under certain circumstances - but not to others. This is a societal judgement.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-21-2005, 02:34 PM | #34 | |||
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First and foremost, as you said, "life is referred top as human life and to extend it beyond that is pretty ridiculous". So "cruelty to animals" would be a subject of debate. It is an expression of our individualism that we choose to not torture a cat or to become vegetarian. That society has decided it's "wrong" to torture animals is, IMO, because some individuals have decided that and others (by virtue of their "herd instinct") subscribed into that vision. So here's the discussion question I propose: which is better following societal judgment concerning animal cruelty or finding that out for ourselves through observation and experience? I prefer choice two: religion says it's wrong to abuse and to be cruel; but whether or not that extends to other forms of life remains a point of debate. That's where individualism kicks in: decide for yourself according to your own character and morality ==> Religion allows for individualism. Quote:
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01-21-2005, 02:58 PM | #35 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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The Episcipal Church in the US said it was not morally wrong for homosexuals to become priests and has openly allowed it - while in Europe it was loudly denounced (i'm not sure what the mood is there now). This has caused people with different moral views to fight over this issue. Collectively they are deciding on the morality of the issue. Until the revolution and particularly the civil war it was morally acceptable by society to own slaves - now we view it as reprehensible. But then again - as I have said before - we can't judge the past on the morals of today. Morals change only because enough people change their opinions about morality of an issue to then become the majority. At one time it was common practice for people to take a record, tape it and give it to their friends. Now all of a sudden it is "wrong" because the internet makes this practice so much more efficient. Why did people not think anything about taping a record, but now if I' rip a cd and share it with my friends or use a download program - I have to hear a speech about how that is stealing. What changed? Society changed.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-21-2005, 03:15 PM | #36 | |
Quasi Evil
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what do you mean exactly by "absolute values of good and evil"?
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01-21-2005, 03:59 PM | #37 | |
The Intermittent One
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i know human or animal is one and the same for me, and many others i know of. |
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01-21-2005, 04:13 PM | #38 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-21-2005, 04:15 PM | #39 |
The Intermittent One
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americans would prove a good exhibit, no offence
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01-21-2005, 04:17 PM | #40 | ||
avocatus diaboli
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Oh... neat thread. herd instinct... nice Nietzsche quote to use...
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[edit] cross post- We would, wouldn't we, LCoU...
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