09-08-2006, 01:42 PM | #21 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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By the time the Valar did something, one of the Silmarils was set to be in the sky as a guide. They took the other two from the crown of Morgoth, but we don't know what they were going to do with them. Thanks to Maglor and Meadhros stealing them 'back', one of them was thrown into a pit of fire (followed by the owner), the other was thrown into the sea (not followed by the owner). And unless the Valar broke the world (which would by very unpracticle, as well as messy), they wre lost forever.
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09-08-2006, 04:19 PM | #22 | |||||
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09-08-2006, 05:15 PM | #23 | |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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Well, yes, there was that detail as well. But these are the main two reasons, for them not doing anything sooner. Unfortunatly, i've never read that bit. I can cope with it upto that discussion with Finrod and that woman, but after that, it just gets boring for me.
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09-08-2006, 11:57 PM | #24 |
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Of course Feanor can't remake them, namely because he's dead. I think it was within Aule's power though, not to remake them but to refresh them, if you will. All substance of earth, including the gems the Silmarils were crafted of, were under his rule and their properties were of him. I don't think the Silmarils could be destroyed so there would be no need to "remake" them
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Leviathan rising like a tower from the depths of Ekkaia, the far off outer sea, where the boats of men and elves will not venture. Of all the beast of Ea Leviathan is mightiest by far. As old as the sea itself, a servant of Ulmo, loyal to Osse. Beware the swell of the sea, beware the Leviathan |
09-09-2006, 06:22 AM | #25 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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They can only be made once, because they were fated to be made only once. I don't think even Aule kno what they were made of.
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09-10-2006, 12:43 AM | #26 | ||
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09-10-2006, 02:36 AM | #27 | |
The Black Númenórean
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
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09-10-2006, 02:53 AM | #28 | |
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The last sane person. Why do you think Eru is an asshole for planning everything that's to happen in the future?
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09-10-2006, 01:01 PM | #29 | |
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"But when wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth" -Felagund, the greatest of the Noldo, and to walk Middle-Earth. |
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09-10-2006, 01:56 PM | #30 | |
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That was beyond their means; Ungoliant was leading them astray with her unlight, and Melkor was soon within reach of his mighty balrog host. As stated in Myths Transformed, a war sooner than the war of wrath would have meant the phisical destruction of Arda
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09-10-2006, 02:09 PM | #31 |
Hobbit
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ohhhhh ok i get it now, thank you.
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"But when wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth" -Felagund, the greatest of the Noldo, and to walk Middle-Earth. |
09-11-2006, 12:15 PM | #32 | |
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09-11-2006, 01:13 PM | #33 |
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Because Morgoth was getting out of hand, and they had to stop him, overwise, the whole of middle earth would be distroyed.
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09-11-2006, 01:32 PM | #34 | ||
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09-11-2006, 03:56 PM | #35 |
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Interesting. I haven't read HoME for a while, so will have to revisit that part.
It begs the question as to the necessity of Eärendil's voyage. Would the Valar have felt compelled to defeat Melkor if the voyage had failed, since Melkor would have more or less hit this weak state anyway, or could they have moved a bit earlier like right after the one Silmaril was taken? Plus, it would seem to me that Melkor would have lost much more power over Arda during the thousands of years of his imprisonment than the 500ish years of the wars in Beleriand. It was my understanding that his dissemination of power occured very early on, and that his initial capture was after this. A capture which did not in fact destroy Arda. I guess I'm trying to understand what changed between the initial capture of Melkor and the time shortly after his release that would have stopped the Valar from mounting an attack immediately, before even the elves had re-entered middle earth.
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10-09-2006, 04:46 PM | #36 |
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It is said a couple of times that Morgoth got weaker as the ages went on since he invested his own power in his monsters and minions and mayhaps all of creation.
Perhaps the Vala knew this and preferred to wait. Also, perhaps the Vala too were weakened through time, and did not think they could pull it off. Ultimately, however, they're following orders of Eru through Manwe, so we must assume Eru wanted Melkor free and dangerous, at least for a time.
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10-09-2006, 04:56 PM | #37 |
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yeah, because a) the more you invest your soul into something, the weaker you become (sauron anyone), b) melkor was a necessity to the history of the world, and c) the valar are punishing the elves for their disobayance.
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10-10-2006, 01:03 AM | #38 | |
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From Ósanwe-kenta
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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10-10-2006, 03:50 AM | #39 |
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Morgoth’s “weakness” was based upon his attempt to control all Arda by inserting or investing some of himself into everything in it. His will was expended by seeking to control and dominate the wills of others. His strength was spent in overpowering and enslaving others. Even in his weakness, he was greater than all of the Children of Ilúvatar, and he was greater than the Maiar. His feet were cut from under him, he was wrestled again by Tulkas, bound by the chain Angainor, and cast from Eä wherein was set the Flame Imperishable into the Outer Darkness where the Flame Imperishable came not.
It is not that you invest your being into something that you become weaker, particularly if that requires you to grow into becoming a better person! Sauron did not become weaker because he invested nearly all his native power into the One Ring: that made him stronger, because he could then use the powers of the other Ring Bearers; that is why the Eldar of Eregion took theirs off when they became aware of Sauron and his spell. Eventually, however, Sauron was separated from him Ruling Ring, and was thus diminished both by its absence and by the means by which he was deprived of it: it required centuries to take form again. He was not utterly destroyed because his native power was in the Ring, and it still existed; but he was not as strong as he had been and hoped again to be because the Ring was not in his possession. His fear was that one of the Wise would seize the Ring; and Gandalf and Aragorn used that fear – a paranoia, perhaps – to misguide him into “setting a surprise trap” (some surprise trap! They knew they were walking into a deadly trap) and turning all his attention on them. When the Ring was destroyed, all his power that he had invested in the Ring, along with all the power he had stolen through the other Rings of Power, was suddenly dissipated and undone: what was left of him was a mere shadow of malice, unable ever again to take shape. To say that the Valar were punishing the Elves is not an accurate assessment of the situation, either. The Valar were stating what should have been obvious: We, The Valar, will go after Morgoth at a proper time, and you can accompany us then. If you go now, in anger and pride and vengeance, you will achieve nothing but your own deaths and destruction; and moreover, you have without cause murdered your own kinsfolk in your arrogant insolence and lust, and for this, a terrible price must be paid. It is not the right time, and you are not now the right leaders, though later you may be if you will stay and prepare. It is akin to a parent saying to a child, “Do not put your hands on the stove: it is hot, it will burn you.” We told our nephew this over and over and over and over – it was interminable! One evening I heard a piercing yowl of pain, rushed into the kitchen, and found a mother and a grandmother and an aunt all frantic with ice and burn cream and a sobbing little boy who from time to time burst forth with new cries. After a trip to the hospital, he told everyone he was sorry, he was so sorry – and so were we. To him it seemed a punishment for disobedience, not the natural and unavoidable outcome of putting his hand on a hot burner of the stove. He did heal completely, and he does keep his hands from the stove, but what a hard and painful lesson him to learn, and so hard for all of us to watch him learn. Would Eru feel any differently for any one of his Children - could He? Evil comes from refusing to do what is good. It is not a thing of itself, but takes is being from the negation of a thing. Evil has consequences: just as if you improperly build or maintain a bridge, it will collapse, as did this bridge in Montreal last week, so if you improperly or unjustly lead your life, your life will come apart. When Melkor used his one chance to do good, to do what was right, and to obey the laws and edicts of Eru, he responded by
Eru did not make Melkor to do all these evil things that he did. By that I mean Eru did not make Melkor with the intent or the purpose of committing evil, nor did Eru cause Melkor to commit evil: Melkor was inventive in his own right, inventiveness being a great gift of Eru to him, and he abused that gift by concocting schemes and plans and actions that he knew were hurtful to Eru who made him and loved him. Is this crazy? Yes, it is. Do we, each and every one of use, see it every day at home in dealings between parents and children, at work between coworkers and between managers and employees, at church among clergy and at church between clergy and laity, in social settings of every kind between one faction and another? Does that make it right? No! The nature of evil is to make enemies of those who should be friends, to deal out early death, to maim bodies and break hearts and rot souls. It is a disease, not one created by the Creator, but invented in all its rotten, dark-hearted, vile and hateful forms by those who have rebelled and continue to rebel against their Creator. Did Eru know what would happen? Yes, he did. Should he deprive the good of what they might have so that the evil might be avoided? Or should he deprive the evil of all possibility of action before anything has taken place? Are any of us perfectly good? So could any of us be alive if every evil action is blocked or its actor unmade? Besides, “freedom” is not “True Freedom” unless you have also the right and capacity to screw up, to make mistakes, even if they are deliberate mistakes that might hurt others. There are consequences for such decisions and actions, certainly; but the hurt and damage are not all undone. Evil can arise because some abuse their Freedom. If this frightens you, your only alternative is to willingly enslave yourself to something or someone, and let that other make for you every decision in life; but even then, you may be hurt or killed by one who has not renounced his Freedom but has misused it. If you would be Free, then you must take the chance that by your choices you will make mistakes; and if you would not have slaves, then you must grant to those about you those same choices and that same chance. Nothing is evil in its beginning. Even Sauron was not so. So said Gandalf, and he was there. But primordial evil is spread throughout all Arda through expenditure by Morgoth of his strength and will, in every little bit and piece of it. Athrabeth, a wise-woman of the First House of the Edain, told Finrod that some Men clung to the Old Hope: that Eru Himself would enter Arda and correct the problems and cure the disease. Finrod (whose brother Aegnor loved Athrabeth, and she loved him) asked her how this could be, but she did not know. But to fight evil is a requirement of being good: and so Finrod went to join Aegnor in the Dorthonion marches to fight evil. Morgoth attempted to enslave all Arda. He expended his strength and will in overwhelming the strengths and wills of others. Eru gave him Freedom, which he abused outrageously; but Eru also knew precisely when the Host of the West should hit Morgoth and stop his nefarious rule. Manwë listened, he obeyed, Morgoth was overcome. The Children of Elves and Men were forged together like two metals alloyed by a mighty smith, and the stage was set for the arising of the Dún-Edain and the bliss and glory of Númenor. |
10-10-2006, 11:02 AM | #40 | |
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