On the death of Arwen

Balrog at Planet Tolkien liked to say that

Well, maybe he'll be kind enough to say if he's the same?

[Snowdog]

in the Lorien section of FotR, it says that Arogorn "left the hill of Cerin Amroth & came there never again as a living man."

An interpretation of this could be that he returned there only in the memories of Arwen?

[Silpion]

The death of Arwen was bittersweet and poignant because Arwen did lose everything. Her parents and grandmother were gone (I am unsure if Celeborn was still around or her brothers) and she had no way of following them since that road was closed to her, her husband had passed on, and even though she had children she did not seem to want to stay around for them. She travels to Lorien, which at this point is probably just a shadow of what it used to be, lays herself down on a mound and dies. And, she is not even remembered afterwords. Of course, all of this is just my humble opinion, but I am fine with this ending because I believe (I have no proof, this is just my personal view) that Arwen and Aragorn are united wherever they ended up after they both passed on from Middle Earth. If Tolkien's intentions were to have the Elves fade from memory then maybe Arwen was a part of that "fading".

[aurora7054]

well all it says was that the eldars(elves) sailed to the Undying lands. It never says that the characters never meet again after Death. I would think that since both man and the elves are both childeren of Eru Ilúvatar that he wouldn't have the heart to keep both them away from each other. So I believe that Arwen gets to see both her family(dad/mother/ect) and her new family(daughters/son/husband) after her death. Since tolkien/c.s.lewis had the same idea of heaven just a different title for it. Undying land(tolkien) Aslan's country/ Great land beyound the sea/My fathers country or is it land(lewis) and if i remember right i dont think that tolkien said there wasn't a place for man to go to after death..It just might mean that since elves are perfect(in and at everthing) and inmortal that they get to see heaven 1st. and if that wasn't right why let froddo/gimli/ Bilbo go to the undying land (just be cause they eather carried the ring or help carry the task of takening it to mount doom...like Gandalf says "Death is only the Beginning" as seen below

Pippin: I didn't think it would end this way.
Gandalf: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path. One that we all must take... The gray rain curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass. And then you see it...
Pippin: What--Gandalf, see what?
Gandalf: White shores. And beyond... A far green country, with a swift sunrise... (sigh).
Pippin: (smiling) Well... that doesn't sound so bad.
Gandalf: No... No it isn't (smiling, tears).

so all in all they all might see each other again

[The Gaffer]

Holy thread necromancy!

Hello aurora.

Frodo, Sam and Gimli don't "undie". They are allowed to pass into the West so that they can be healed fully of the hurts of the Ring (in the case of the former two) or so they can see Galadriel again (in the case of Gimli) before they die naturally.

If you're interested in this side of the story, I'd recommend the Silmarillion.

Those lines from Gandalf in the film are lifted from Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house in the books, by the way.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally Posted by Earendil

Could this be the gift in death that the Silmarillion spoke of, perhaps a notion that mortal man has life beyond death, after all? This is the only place I can recall reading about the potential for mortal man's life after death.l

Men have the clear promise of the continuation of their spirit after death of the body, as do Elves. What men have ia additional is that their spirit is free (and likely compelled, after a time) to leave to earth, and to seek other existances, they also have a prophecy that their spirits will at some time in the future, beyond the eding of the world, dwell with Eru. Elvish spirits are bound to the earth, and after the destruction of their bodies, they can, after a period in limbo (halls of Mandos), be re-embodied in Aman. Elvels however have NO prophecy or guidence as to what will happen to their spirits at the ending of the world. They do not know if they will continue beyond the end of the world, or if so, where.

The different destinations of the spirits is the main cause of the deep grief for Elrond. He is facing separation from Arwen until at least the ending of the world, and possibly forever.

[Jon S.]

Elrond got to spend many years longer with his daughter than I ever will with mine so it's frankly hard for me to feel extra sorry for him about Arwen. He should let go of his grief and appreciate better was he was given.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Men have the clear promise of the continuation of their spirit after death of the body, as do Elves. What men have ia additional is that their spirit is free (and likely compelled, after a time) to leave to earth, and to seek other existances, they also have a prophecy that their spirits will at some time in the future, beyond the eding of the world, dwell with Eru. Elvish spirits are bound to the earth, and after the destruction of their bodies, they can, after a period in limbo (halls of Mandos), be re-embodied in Aman. Elvels however have NO prophecy or guidence as to what will happen to their spirits at the ending of the world. They do not know if they will continue beyond the end of the world, or if so, where.

The different destinations of the spirits is the main cause of the deep grief for Elrond. He is facing separation from Arwen until at least the ending of the world, and possibly forever.

Sounds a lot like Anderson's little mermaid.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Elrond got to spend many years longer with his daughter than I ever will with mine so it's frankly hard for me to feel extra sorry for him about Arwen. He should let go of his grief and appreciate better was he was given.

But it's pretty hard to be one of only a tiny number (along with his wife, and Thingol and Melian, and Idril and supposedly Tuor) of all your elven friends who will NOT see their children again for all eternity (as far as he knows).

[Wayfarer]

True, but let's be frank about this: Not seeing your child until the end of time because they've chosen to go beyond the world to be with their true love for ever and ever is one thing. But as sad as that might seem, it's probably a less painful option than not seeing them until the end of time because of the horrific, soul-scarring tragedy of their lives has left them unwilling or incapable of functioning as a corporeal being until without a billion years of psychotherapy.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by aurora7054

well all it says was that the eldars(elves) sailed to the Undying lands. It never says that the characters never meet again after Death. I would think that since both man and the elves are both childeren of Eru Ilúvatar that he wouldn't have the heart to keep both them away from each other. So I believe that Arwen gets to see both her family(dad/mother/ect) and her new family(daughters/son/husband) after her death. Since tolkien/c.s.lewis had the same idea of heaven just a different title for it. Undying land(tolkien) Aslan's country/ Great land beyound the sea/My fathers country or is it land(lewis) and if i remember right i dont think that tolkien said there wasn't a place for man to go to after death..It just might mean that since elves are perfect(in and at everthing) and inmortal that they get to see heaven 1st. and if that wasn't right why let froddo/gimli/ Bilbo go to the undying land (just be cause they eather carried the ring or help carry the task of takening it to mount doom...like Gandalf says "Death is only the Beginning" as seen below

Someone has probably already said this, but... that just ain't so, Jimmy. When the Elves die, they go to Aman. When Men die, they do as well, but they are not allowed outside the Halls of Mandos, and they only stay briefly, before they pass outside the Circle of the World, to an unknown fate.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

True, but let's be frank about this: Not seeing your child until the end of time because they've chosen to go beyond the world to be with their true love for ever and ever is one thing. But as sad as that might seem, it's probably a less painful option than not seeing them until the end of time because of the horrific, soul-scarring tragedy of their lives has left them unwilling or incapable of functioning as a corporeal being until without a billion years of psychotherapy.

That's why Feanor caused all that trouble, because he was hurting inside.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by aurora7054

well all it says was that the eldars(elves) sailed to the Undying lands. It never says that the characters never meet again after Death.

I believe you are rather singular in this opinion on this thread

Originally Posted by Of Men, Silmarillion

What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

Originally Posted by aurora7054

It just might mean that since elves are perfect(in and at everthing) and inmortal that they get to see heaven 1st.

Well, elves are not perfect. In fact, nobody is perfect, at least in an incarnate/limited form

Originally Posted by Letter #212

The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may 'go bad' as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds.

Originally Posted by Second footnote to Melkor Morgoht, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.

However, I very much enjoy your comparison of Aman to heaven, as the Undying Lands are as Arda Unmarred would have been, for all its inhabitants. However, Aman as it is, is not heaven for humans; as Tolkien comments in Myths Transformed, it would actually subject humans to great suffering over time, if they did not resist the temptation to unnaturally prolongue their lives. Moreover, in Laws and Customs of the Eldar, HoME X, it is further argued that Aman is not free from evil, since at least the elves brought with them the marring of Arda (plus the above mentioned potential for all beings in Ea to err).

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

They are allowed to pass into the West so that they can be healed fully of the hurts of the Ring (in the case of the former two) or so they can see Galadriel again (in the case of Gimli) before they die naturally.

Hm, is this bolded part mentioned anywhere? I would rather suspect he went there first and foremost to be with his friend Legolas (who, according to the tale of years, accompanied him).

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Elvels however have NO prophecy or guidence as to what will happen to their spirits at the ending of the world. They do not know if they will continue beyond the end of the world, or if so, where.

True, they don't know for sure; however, what it can be "surmised", is that Arda the Blessed will be inhabited by Elves and Men, and it will be a part of Ea, remade from the beginning with the help of Elves, without any marring in it (cf Laws and Customs of the Eldar, HoME X).

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

When the Elves die, they go to Aman.

That is, if they choose to obey the summons of Mandos . Otherwise, they are likely to end up as your friendly (or not so much) Casper...

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Hm, is this bolded part mentioned anywhere? I would rather suspect he went there first and foremost to be with his friend Legolas (who, according to the tale of years, accompanied him).

I think it is hinted at in the Tale of Years, or somewhere in the Sil, or maybe Unfinished Tales.

Not too precise a citation, granted, but I don't have the books in front of me.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I think it is hinted at in the Tale of Years, or somewhere in the Sil, or maybe Unfinished Tales.

Not too precise a citation, granted, but I don't have the books in front of me.

Actually, the very end of Appendix A - see the last paragraph. I don't recall for sure anywhere else that talks about it.

EDIT: Just checked - you were right about the Tale of Years. This is also mentioned in the very last entry of Appendix B.

[Landroval]

Well, I only knew of Appendix B and letter #154 as referring to the departure of Gimli. However, none of these sources (not even App. A), mention Galadriel as the main reason. On the whole, it seems like his friendship with Legolas is the main cause. At least, that's my understanding.

Originally Posted by Letter #155

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

Originally Posted by Year 1541, Third Age, Tale of Years

Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf

Originally Posted by Durin's Folk, App. A

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Gloin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

[The Gaffer]

Thanks for posting those.

Bit of both then? Perhaps with mostly Legolas's friendship being the motivating factor.

I always took Gimli at his word in terms of how he valued her gift above all the jewels in the earth.

[Landroval]

I agree.

I wonder how much of his affection for Galadriel came from the fact that she petted his dwarven ego in Lothlorien (that was evil, I know).

Back to the original topic...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Both texts about Gimli going to Aman contain internal caveats suggesting that this may not be true or may be poetic/bardic license within the internal 'reality' of Arda. "It is said" and "We have heard". This is similar, but with the tale more supported, to that of Turin being made into an elven like immortal and living in Aman.