07-08-2004, 02:23 AM | #21 | ||||||
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Romendacil was slain by Easterlings in a second wave of attacks in 541, and Turambar (his son) defeated the Easterlings, winning "much territory eastwards." It was probably Turambar who negotiated the first treaties with the Northmen and gave some of their princes land between Greenwood the Great (as it was then known) and Mordor (which was still under Gondor's control). If Vidugavia's ancestors were the Free Men of the North who gradually spread down the eastern side of Greenwood during the first centuries of the Third Age, then they probably settled in what became his kingdom before Minalcar's time. They may already have been there in the 6th century when Turambar was whomping the Easterlings. But since the narrative in Appendix A says of Vidugavia that "he called himself King of Rhovanion", it may be that Vidugavia had established his rule over other Northman princes, and that prior to his time there had been several competing tribes or clans in the same region with no clear leadership. Hence, Vidugavia could have established his dominance over the other Northmen in his area as early as 1225 or as late as 1248, if we assume he was about middle-aged when his daughter married Valacar. Quote:
Aragorn also said he had been to "Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange" (the stars probably just applying to Harad, the south), so Rhun could also have been used the way we use "the Orient" to speak of central and eastern Asia. Quote:
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Sauron was the real power behind the Wainriders, although Appendix A only says they were stirred up by his emissaries -- implying, I think, that they had become organized before he approached them (and it may be that he only approached them because he saw they HAD become so well organized). The Northmen were devastated by the Great Plague in 1635 (that is the correct year according to "Cirion and Eorl" in Unfinished Tales, so the plagued was transmitted to Gondor by the Northmen the next year). The Plague came during winter and affected both men and horses. It sounds very much like a respiratory illness or flu, rather than something like Bubonic Plague. Over half the Northmen died from the Great Plague, but apparently the Easterlings suffered heavily too, because it would be another 200 years before they were strong enough to attack the Northmen. One would think the Northmen could have recovered their numbers in 200 years, but then, what would their population have been like if the Great Plague had not affected them at all? The Wainriders were never fully defeated. That is, Gondor never recovered the lost lands. All Gondor was ever able to achieve was the destruction of their main power. But Gondor itself (and the Eotheod, who had emerged as a new, separate people by the end of the Wainrider Wars) was too weak to recover the eastern lands. Continued in next message...
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07-08-2004, 02:25 AM | #22 | |||
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Continued from previous message...
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However, there is a curious passage in the narrative which states that Cirion learned the Balchoth were "slaying or driving north up the River Running and into the Forest the remnant of the Northmen, friends of Gondor that still dwelt east of Mirkwood". Christopher appends a note to this passage in which he writes: "From an earlier passage in this text one gains the impression that there were no Northmen left in the lands east of Mirkwood after the victory of Calimehtar over the Wainriders on the Dagorlad in the year 1899". One way to reconcile the two accounts is to suggest that the Wainriders had withdrawn or been driven east after Sauron fled Dol Guldur in 2063. A tribe of Northmen other than the Eotheod (say, the descendants of the enslaved Northmen who never escaped from the Wainriders) could have finally overthrown the Wainriders in another, unreferenced rebellion (the rebellion in 1899 is said to have failed). Sauron had apparently been colonizing southern Mirkwood with Easterlings since his rising Circa 1050. The Balchoth, by 2510, were living in southern Mirkwood and between Mirkwood and the Dagorlad. But their migration path was probably the same as that of the Wainriders, coming over the Celduin from the northeastern regions of Middle-earth. Quote:
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Tolkien modelled Arnor and Gondor on ancient Egypt, but he utilized some elements from Roman and Byzantine history (and possibly culture) as well. There is no one-to-one correlation between any of the nations of Middle-earth and historical peoples/nations. |
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07-08-2004, 07:00 PM | #23 |
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OK, I think my questions have been narrowed down to the Kingdom of Rhovanion and the Wainriders.
First, the Kingdom of Rhovanion. It was shaped in three possible ways: 1. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion1.jpg Rhovanion streches from Mirkwood to the portion of the Celduin that runs from north to south, thus providing an eastern border. 2. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion2.jpg Rhovanion streches from Mirkwood to the Sea of Rhun. The eastern territories may have had Easterlings, making this claim not so reliable. Nevertheless, it all fits within the Celduin river. 3. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Rhovanion3.jpg Gondor granted the Northerlings the lands beyond Dagorlad. I personally think this one is not true, as I will explain before. Which "Kingdom" looks truest to the actual one? Now, the Wainriders. These next images are more a sort of clarification for me of what happened then a series of questions. 1. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders1.jpg The Wainriders approached from the East, from both the north and south of the Sea of Rhun, and destroyed Rhovanion. From there they invaded Gondor and overran its eastern territories. 2. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders2.jpg About 50 years later, Rhovanion revolts. The Wainriders invade Gondor but are defeated in Dagorlad. Gondor then expels the Wainriders. The Wainriders withdraw to the east and to northen Rhovanion. Here is where I find the apparent Gondorian handover of southern Rhovanion of the northern tribes to be unlikely; I managed to briefly look over The Atlas of Middle Earth's entry on the Wainriders, and the Gondorian advance following the Wainrider defeat in Dagorlad is clearly shown as extending all the way to the Sea of Rhun, so that would imply that Gondor retook ALL of its former territories. 3. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders3.jpg The Wainriders, Khand and Harad invade Gondor. The Wainriders storm through southern Rhovanion (assuming it is part of Gondor at this point), through Dagorlad, and through northen Ithilien. The Nazgul takes this oppurtunity to travel through Dagorlad into Mordor. The Harad and Khand are defeated in the south. The Gondor army then marches north and defeats the Wainriders at the Battle of the Camp. 4. http://www.filespace.org/saurondestroys/Wainriders4.jpg Here is what I derived from the variety of sources that I read. The Wainriders then withdrew from Ithilien and Dagorlad. According to you, they kept both northern and southern Rhovanion. A subsequent revolt in either northen or southern Rhovanion then expelled the Wainriders completely, and they withdrew to the east. The Balchoth occupied northwest Rhovanion, at least until their defeat at the hands of the Rohirrim. Southern Rhovion remained unoccupied by Gondor and eventually the forces of Mordor began exerting control over it. Is this an accurate enough assessment?
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07-08-2004, 07:26 PM | #24 | |||||
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I would say, however, that the Wainriders were probably confined to Vidugavia's old lands, being too weak after their final defeat to really hold on to much else. But that is also speculative. |
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07-12-2004, 01:47 PM | #25 | |
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Well, thanks for the answers, I now have two more questions
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Also, did Angmar control the northen Misty Mountains, specifically from their start to somewhere north of the High Pass?
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07-12-2004, 01:58 PM | #26 | |
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1. Gandalf mentioned to Bilbo that he'd try to find a decent enough giant to plug up the one hole. Also, after the Battle of Five Armies, the Orcs in that area may have been depleted for a bit, enabling the Beornings to exert control of that area. 2. Sorry - your little buddy's ( ) kingdom of Angmar was knocked out of commission by Gondor's Finest... along with detachments from Lindon and Imladris (and likely smatterings of the remnants of Arthedain). It had been gone for over a thousand years by the time of "Lord of the Rings". You're likely right though that in its heyday, the northern passes of the Misty Mountains would have been under Angmar's control - as the kingdom straddled the northern portions of those mountains. And, once Rhudaur came under their sway, they could have easily held the mountains down to the High Pass itself - if not a bit further.
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07-12-2004, 02:18 PM | #27 |
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I am quite capable of realizing that Angmar was destroyed by the murderous thieves of Gondor in 1975, thank you I am referring to it during its heyday.
When would you say the High Pass was first occupied by Orcs? Give a rough time period please. And thanks for the quick response, I notice that these forums are somewhat slow
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07-13-2004, 12:31 PM | #28 | |
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07-15-2004, 10:06 AM | #29 | |
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07-16-2004, 01:15 AM | #30 |
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Always, ALWAYS more questions
Thranduil's realm I have always believed was everything north of the Old Forest Road in Mirkwood. Would this be accurate or not? Also, where did the Beornings originate from? Just the Woodmen to the south? The next three questions concern Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth. Taking into account Mr. Martinez's lovely little assessment of the book, some clarification is being sought. First, Harondor. The Ship-King Falastur is recorded to have conquered that area, later South Gondor, in 830. Just who did he wrestle it from though; the Black Numenorians inhabiting Umbar, or the Harad? Tolkien didn't say which in the appendicies of the LOTR books, as far as I looked. Next, Gondor at its birth. Mr. Martinez stated that Gondor was composed originally or Calenardhon, Ithilien, Belfalas, Lebennin, and Anorien. However, the Atlas of Middle Earth portrays infant Gondor as also occupying both Lamedon and Lossarnach. Lamedon may not have been a fief so much as a region, but Lossarnach definately was a fief. Could clarification be provided here? Finally, the Kingdom of Gil-Gilad. In the Simarillion (sp?), the High Kings almost never controlled the lands of the other Noldor realms, and the rulers there were kings of their own right. If this same tradition is to be applied to Gil-Gilad, would he have actually had control over Imladris as Fonstad portrays? Or would Imladris be pretty much able to do as it pleased? Oh, and while I'm asking more questions, I'll think I'll ask some MORE questions: What was the relationship of Gil-Galad and Elendil? Arnor lays smack in the middle of Gil-Galad's "area of influence", so did he just grant them the land? What was the relationship between Dwarf kingdoms and the main states there? I mean, Dwarves just "settled" in the middle of Lindon and formed their own state in 2802; wouldn't the Elves of Lindon have a slight problem with that? This state survived, as a tributary of Erebor, right? And what of the Glittering Caves and Rohan? Gimli just founds a colony in the middle of territorily claimed land. Was this area independent of Rohan or did the Gimli acknowledge the overlordship of the King of the Mark? Finally, I'm rather doubting that Nogrod survived into the Third Age, I haven't seen anything to say it did. Any sources that say so?
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10-09-2004, 02:35 PM | #31 | ||
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10-09-2004, 02:44 PM | #32 | ||||||||||
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10-14-2004, 03:37 PM | #33 | |
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However, I cannot think of the reference or where that discussion was. |
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