The Official US President Election Thread

[jerseydevil]

I think Edwards is too far left to bring on the moderates though to win the election. He's not as bad as Kucinich though.

[Arien the Maia]

Well, I'll probably vote for Bush (I'm a Republican...most people in good ol' Indiana are.,..but I can't speak for everyone ) I just don't agree with most Democratic's stand on issues that are important to me.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lótiel
EDT: Btw, did Bush ever accomplish anything before he became president? I mean, his daddy put him to work here and there, but he didn´t do very well did he? Hopeless that a person without abilities should have such a job. But I must acknowledge him for being smart in a foxlike way, he knows his ways around.

Since this was edited in afterward I will respond.

I guess you really don't know much about Bush. He was governor of Texas AND was reelected before becoming US President.

[Baby-K]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I'm not even getting involved in this thread, I already see it going in the direction of the Iraq thread. I will say this though. I am registered Independant and have always voted Democratic. However, I will be voting for Bush come election time. I dislike the way the Democrats are handling themselves. I think they are all a joke, with the exception of Edwards and Lieberman. I think Edwards is the only one of the bunch who seems sincere and isn't an asshole, lol. Plus I like the fact that he declared that he was running for the Presidency on the "Daily Show with Jon Stewart"

Either way, I like the things Bush has done, especially the way he handled 9/11. Growing up and living in New York the majority of my life, certainly has helped the cause. I know a lot of my New York friends and family feel the same way, regardless of their political affiliation. It's weird and hard to explain if you don't live in the NY/NJ area, but there is a bond to that area that and when someone stands up and does as much as they can, especially in a tragic instance as that was, it only makes your native heart grow closer in that respect. I think the fact that being from that area, you are drawn more close to it and relate to it more than someone from California, who only feels the sympathy of their fellow countryman. I'm sure others from that area will understand what I am saying more, lol...

So basically, what you are saying is you'll be voting for the lesser of the two evils?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Baby-K
So basically, what you are saying is you'll be voting for the lesser of the two evils?

That's pretty much the choices on the ballot...

President
[a] Greater Evil
[b] Somewhat Evil
[c] Abit Evil
[d] Lesser Evil

[Baby-K]

Would seem so, though I do find it rather disturbing and sad in a way that he (Dunedain) would forego his beliefs to vote a man back into power that in essence should oppose his very political beliefs. It's a pity the Democrats do not have a strong candidate to oppose Bush, but in a way I guess him remaining in power would at least ensure that certain projects, such as stabilising the situation in Iraq, which, let's face it will play a major role in the decisions made by the US voters, are seen through to conclusion.

And I do not want to turn the discussion into another Iraq thread, but what, besides the happenings there will Bush be basing his election campaign on? After all, he has failed miserably to deliver on his budget proposals as laid out when he was first elected. The issues of unemployments and homelessness have not been addressed in a way that I would feel happy with had I been an American citizen, although it's a problem that all administrations have really failed to address.

Can anyone say how large a proportion of the Jewish population in the US happen to support the Republicans? Probably not, but it would be interesting to know, as it could turn out that the Jewish/Israeli votes might work in Bush's favour, after all it is in the interest of Israel that he remain in power, so that the so-called power-equality in the Middle East be put into action.

[Nurvingiel]

Many posts, much to ponder. Thanks for the Constitution quotes for me JD, they did help. I don't pretend to understand all of a sudden how the system works, but I will re-read your Constitution quotes and "sift it down" a little bit.

If I was American, I probably wouldn't vote for Bush. Our political views are almost diametrically opposite, except one thing that I know of.

Points of Disagreement:
- I believe in a small military
- I am against any country having nuclear weapons
- I support gay rights, and their right to marriage
- I feel very strongly that if we want to be part of a free trade agreement, we should actually adhere to it. Please stop putting tarriffs on our softwood lumber.

Points of Agreement:
- I hear from a reliable source that he has good family values.

I've also heard from a reliable source that when he was governor of Texas, the first law he passed was allowing you to bring a gun into church.

If I was American, I would also determine if he kept his election promises or not.

I have three questions for anyone who knows:
Is it true he has good family values?
Is it true he passed a law letting you bring a gun to church?
Did he keep all (or as many as reasonably possible) of his election promises?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Would seem so, though I do find it rather disturbing and sad in a way that he (Dunedain) would forego his beliefs to vote a man back into power that in essence should oppose his very political beliefs.

Where did Dunedain say he was forgoing his beliefs by voting for Bush? He's an independant - he just happened to always vote democratic. He supports Bush and he also supported the war in Iraq very strongly. But I'll let him answer this further - I mean - he's the one who watches Fox News all the time and then votes democratic.

It's a pity the Democrats do not have a strong candidate to oppose Bush, but in a way I guess him remaining in power would at least ensure that certain projects, such as stabilising the situation in Iraq, which, let's face it will play a major role in the decisions made by the US voters, are seen through to conclusion.

I don't - because I support Bush. I think he has done a good job overall. His presidency went through a ton of stuff which was completely beyond his control and I think he handled it very well - including Iraq which I supported. I think all the democractic candidates just would be disaster in foreign policy.

And I do not want to turn the discussion into another Iraq thread, but what, besides the happenings there will Bush be basing his election campaign on?

There are several things he can run on - not just Iraq. The war on terrorism (afganistan, etc), his handling of 9/11, the economy if it keeps picking up - which wasn't his fault to begin with - it started it's downward slide the last year of Clinton's presidency because of the tech bubble. 9/11 and the corporate scandals - neither of which were Bush's fault - caused the economy to get worse.

Most of his presidency has been taken up with the result of 9/11 though - that is the big thing. People may disagree over Iraq, but not many people forget how he handled 9/11.

After all, he has failed miserably to deliver on his budget proposals as laid out when he was first elected.

A lot of the budget was not his fault. Yeah - people can argue about cutting taxes - but most people aren't going to want to give that money back. It also helped put money BACK into the economy which was important. The majority of the budgetary problems are a direct or indirect result of 9/11 and the severe downturn in the economy because of it.

The issues of unemployments and homelessness have not been addressed in a way that I would feel happy with had I been an American citizen, although it's a problem that all administrations have really failed to address.

Homelessness and the unemployment is really not something the president can do muchabout. Unemployment is an affect of the economy - which the president can influence - but not control. Unemployment was greatly affected by 9/11. However - unemployment in the US is much lower than Germany and France and other European countries - even when it reached it's highest level. Hopefully companies will be hiring soon and stop outsourcing to India and China.

Homelessness is more a state and city issue - not a national issue.

Can anyone say how large a proportion of the Jewish population in the US happen to support the Republicans? Probably not, but it would be interesting to know, as it could turn out that the Jewish/Israeli votes might work in Bush's favour, after all it is in the interest of Israel that he remain in power, so that the so-called power-equality in the Middle East be put into action.

ARE AMERICAN JEWS BECOMING REPUBLICAN?
INSIGHTS INTO JEWISH POLITICAL BEHAVIOR

1) An overwhelming majority of American Jews - 73 percent - describe themselves as moderate or liberal; 23 percent label themselves as conservative. Only 19 percent voted for Bush in the 2000 elections, but there are indications that Jewish support for the Republican Party is on the rise.

2) The growing Orthodox communities in the New York metropolitan area and elsewhere are distinctively Republican. In addition, Jews raised in households with a non-Jewish parent and who identify nominally with Judaism also tend to vote Republican.

3) Among Jewish voters polled during the 2002 New York governor's race, 47 percent indicated they would consider supporting George W. Bush. A Luntz Research Poll in April 2003 showed that 48 percent of Jews surveyed said they would consider voting for Bush in 2004.

4) In November 2002 and again during the recall election on October 7, 2003, California Governor Grey Davis received 69 percent of the Jewish vote. The Los Angeles Times Exit Poll indicated that 31 percent of Jewish voters supported Arnold Schwarzenegger. Together with the nearly 10 percent showing that Republican conservative State Senator Tom McClintock garnered from the Jewish community, the two leading Republican candidates attracted 40 percent of the Jewish vote.

5) According to one scenario, the Jewish vote might still be significant in determining the 2004 presidential election. Nine key states with significant Jewish populations account for 212 electoral votes or 78 percent of the total needed to secure the White House.

[Baby-K]

Where did Dunedain say he was forgoing his beliefs by voting for Bush? He's an independant - he just happened to always vote democratic. He supports Bush and he also supported the war in Iraq very strongly. But I'll let him answer this further - I mean - he's the one who watches Fox News all the time and then votes democratic.

Oh well, I guess I assumed that his political views were more in line with the Democratic principles, rather than the Republic as he said that he had always voted Democratic. So I thought voting for a Republican would go against his general political stance. My bad.

BTW Dùnedain - just as a point of interest, did you vote for Bush in the last election? If not, what has changed your mind about the man, after all he is fundamentally still the same as he was then and I cannot believe that you'd think waging of a war could suddenly change the principles that made you not vote for him the last time? I can understand that, having lived in NY most of your life (if not all) you were probably more directly affected by 9/11 and thus the way he handled it (if you were as impressed with it as JD) could impress you, but to the extent where it'd sway your vote? Just interested in knowing.

JD, I'll probably answer the rest at a later time, but I need to go now.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Many posts, much to ponder. Thanks for the Constitution quotes for me JD, they did help. I don't pretend to understand all of a sudden how the system works, but I will re-read your Constitution quotes and "sift it down" a little bit.

No problem

If I was American, I probably wouldn't vote for Bush. Our political views are almost diametrically opposite, except one thing that I know of.

Points of Disagreement:
- I believe in a small military

can't have a small militaryu when you are expected to fight the UN battles and NATO battles. Europe is so far behind us in military technology and so is Canada. We do have to protect South Korea and we are fighting and have fought and lead multiple military campaigns under Bush as well as Clinton. We need the military if you want and the rest of the western world wishes to live in the freedom you enjoy.

- I am against any country having nuclear weapons

Nuclear weapons helped prevent the Soviet Union from overrunning Europe - not to mention the world.

- I support gay rights, and their right to marriage

This is a state issue - not a national. Bush has no control over this. Even if he does want a Constitutional Amendment - I do not think it will happen. New Jersey this week became the 5th state to honor same sex unions.

- I feel very strongly that if we want to be part of a free trade agreement, we should actually adhere to it. Please stop putting tarriffs on our softwood lumber.

Please tell your politicians to stop being a$$holes - liek saying "damn Americans, I hate those bastards" You might have gotten the tarriffs lifted if it wasn't for the attitude of your former PM. You know - Chriac clone.

Points of Agreement:
- I hear from a reliable source that he has good family values.

That is true

I've also heard from a reliable source that when he was governor of Texas, the first law he passed was allowing you to bring a gun into church.

I seriously doubt this - because the democrats would have used this if they could in the 2000 election.

If I was American, I would also determine if he kept his election promises or not.

9/11 sort of changed all that. I don't think you could keep any president to his election promises after having to deal with that. I know the rest of the world sort of think it's nothing. But think what would happen if a major cities business district was completely wiped off the face of the earth. The Twin Towers had more office space than all of San Diego. The world seems not to realize this and how truly devastating 9/11 was..

Did he keep all (or as many as reasonably possible) of his election promises?

He kept his "No Child left Behind" idea, he kept his "perscription drug plan". I don't remember many of his election promises. As I said - 9/11 and the war on terrorism sort of changed America's goals.

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
can't have a small militaryu when you are expected to fight the UN battles and NATO battles. Europe is so far behind us in military technology and so is Canada. We do have to protect South Korea and we are fighting and have fought and lead multiple military campaigns under Bush as well as Clinton. We need the military if you want and the rest of the western world wishes to live in the freedom you enjoy.

Europe is not far behind the US in military technology. The European countries develop new technology for military use all the time. Germany for example are building the next generation submarines and Sweden was the first country (even before the US) to create the current generation of fighter jets. And fighter jets use some the most advanced technology mankind has ever developped.
That the US military is bigger than any other military is another thing.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Europe is not far behind the US in military technology. The European countries develop new technology for military use all the time. Germany for example are building the next generation submarines and Sweden was the first country (even before the US) to create the current generation of fighter jets. And fighter jets use some the most advanced technology mankind has ever developped.
That the US military is bigger than any other military is another thing.

The military overall of Europe is what is behind. The US is talking to NATO members about how far behind the European countries are getting from the US and that if they want a role in the world other than just small things - they had better be doing more.

[LutraMage]

Originally posted by Lótiel
I know that what I write may seem very offencive to many americans, but this is how much of the world feels.

Nonsense. I'm not American and I don't agree with your comments, and no one, but no one can have any idea "how much of the world feels". That's just a silly statement.

However:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I am proud to be an American, and it's a shame that you can't experience that feeling.

No its not a shame that non-American's can't experience what its like to be proud of being an American - it's absolutely fantastic that you should be proud of your country (and as an American, you have a great deal to be proud of) but don't let the foolish voices of ignorance trick you into being exactly what they complain about ie arogant people who only think that their own feelings and beliefs are what's important - the US is a big country, but 350m people is small fare compared to a world of 4.5 billion - let the rest of us be proud of our own countries you don't need us to feel proud of being American.

As for the US Presidency, well, obviously that's for you US guys and gals to decide, but I'd vote for Bush - I just wish you could sort him out on environmental issues (but then, no politician is perfect)!

[Falagar]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Nuclear weapons helped prevent the Soviet Union from overrunning Europe - not to mention the world.

But do you need them anymore? There's almost no one left to oppose the US military anyway, and I doubt that there're many people anywhere who would support the use of them.

This is a state issue - not a national. Bush has no control over this. Even if he does want a Constitutional Amendment - I do not think it will happen. New Jersey this week became the 5th state to honor same sex unions.

I think it was just a statement of disagreement (doesn't matter if he has any control over it or not, she still disagree with him).

The military overall of Europe is what is behind. The US is talking to NATO members about how far behind the European countries are getting from the US and that if they want a role in the world other than just small things - they had better be doing more.

That really depends on what kind of role they want. And though it may not be big compared to the US Europe have some military power. Are everything but military "small things"?

Edit: Ops, sorry, I'm off-topic.

[Radagast]

To tell the truth, I rather like bush.

[Insidious Rex]

Points of Agreement:
- I hear from a reliable source that he has good family values.

obviously you haven’t met his daughters yet.

The majority of the budgetary problems are a direct or indirect result of 9/11 and the severe downturn in the economy because of it.

I don’t know that I agree with that. I think the economy had been going down hill before September 11. It just dropped off a cliff at that point. It provided the push but I don’t think it was the whole story by far.

Hopefully companies will be hiring soon and stop outsourcing to India and China.

I don’t see this happening any time soon. Its simply a lot cheaper to export jobs to places where you don’t have to pay American level wages. That’s the problem with the upturn in the current economy. Big business and wall street is making money again but they STILL aren’t hiring. I think that could hurt Bush in November even if the economy is doing well. It wont be as bad as if the economy was crappy but when you only pick up 1000 jobs in a quarter while the economy seems to be booming and businesses are making money again people get kind of frustrated. They think well if businesses are doing so well again why cant I get hired! Bush will need to acknowledge and address this and not simply brush it aside and declare oh my economy is doing great everyone is in great shape. Yes its true its hard to create jobs over night through presidential policy but it would make a difference if he said hey the economy is growing stronger BUT we need to focus on jobs for people. And we are going to. I think a lot of people feel ignored by Bush at this point. Which only contributes to his reputation of being for the rich and big business.

I support gay rights, and their right to marriage

yeah I forgot about this issue. I really have no idea how this is going to impact the election. The fact that Bush wants to actively change the constitution to forbid same sex partners from marrying I think could be an issue for him. I mean that REALLY gets people worked up who don’t think the same. And it turns off the middle of the roaders who don’t want a president using religion to CHANGE things like the constitution to allow discrimination against a group. BUT it also is widely supported by more conservative folks who just don’t want gays marrying. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out and who it effects more.

No its not a shame that non-American's can't experience what its like to be proud of being an American - it's absolutely fantastic that you should be proud of your country (and as an American, you have a great deal to be proud of) but don't let the foolish voices of ignorance trick you into being exactly what they complain about ie arogant people who only think that their own feelings and beliefs are what's important - the US is a big country, but 350m people is small fare compared to a world of 4.5 billion - let the rest of us be proud of our own countries you don't need us to feel proud of being American.

well said.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by LutraMage
Nonsense. I'm not American and I don't agree with your comments, and no one, but no one can have any idea "how much of the world feels". That's just a silly statement.

However:No its not a shame that non-American's can't experience what its like to be proud of being an American - it's absolutely fantastic that you should be proud of your country (and as an American, you have a great deal to be proud of) but don't let the foolish voices of ignorance trick you into being exactly what they complain about ie arogant people who only think that their own feelings and beliefs are what's important - the US is a big country, but 350m people is small fare compared to a world of 4.5 billion - let the rest of us be proud of our own countries you don't need us to feel proud of being American.

You are absolutely right here. LM. All I was trying to do was show the poster in question how wrong it is to speak for everyone, or to group together so many people and assume they believe the same as you do. It was like they were speaking for the entire world.

As for the US Presidency, well, obviously that's for you US guys and gals to decide, but I'd vote for Bush - I just wish you could sort him out on environmental issues (but then, no politician is perfect)!

I will vote for Bush. I think he has done a good job so far. So as my mom would have said: "If it isn't broke, than don't fix it."

[gdl96]

I have a question about the primaries. How does the Iowa Caucus work?

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Baby-K
Would seem so, though I do find it rather disturbing and sad in a way that he (Dunedain) would forego his beliefs to vote a man back into power that in essence should oppose his very political beliefs. It's a pity the Democrats do not have a strong candidate to oppose Bush, but in a way I guess him remaining in power would at least ensure that certain projects, such as stabilising the situation in Iraq, which, let's face it will play a major role in the decisions made by the US voters, are seen through to conclusion.

My belief is to vote for whoever I think would be best for my country, regardless of political affiliation. Therefore, I am not compromising anything, I think Bush is the best one out there for America. I never said the "lesser of two evils", so please don't put words in my mouth, thanks...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
obviously you haven’t met his daughters yet.

Everyone has some problems. And drinking underage in college or sneaking into a nightclub isn't really anything new. I think overall they have a good family values. The media blew that out of proportion.

I don’t know that I agree with that. I think the economy had been going down hill before September 11. It just dropped off a cliff at that point. It provided the push but I don’t think it was the whole story by far.

I didn't say it was the whole story. I had said the economy was going down the last year of the Clinton presidency and that 9/11 made it worse - and then the corporate scandals. Neither of which was bush's fault.

the economy if it keeps picking up - which wasn't his fault to begin with - it started it's downward slide the last year of Clinton's presidency because of the tech bubble. 9/11 and the corporate scandals - neither of which were Bush's fault - caused the economy to get worse.

I just didn't repeat that a second time.

I don’t see this happening any time soon. Its simply a lot cheaper to export jobs to places where you don’t have to pay American level wages. That’s the problem with the upturn in the current economy. Big business and wall street is making money again but they STILL aren’t hiring. I think that could hurt Bush in November even if the economy is doing well. It wont be as bad as if the economy was crappy but when you only pick up 1000 jobs in a quarter while the economy seems to be booming and businesses are making money again people get kind of frustrated. They think well if businesses are doing so well again why cant I get hired! Bush will need to acknowledge and address this and not simply brush it aside and declare oh my economy is doing great everyone is in great shape. Yes its true its hard to create jobs over night through presidential policy but it would make a difference if he said hey the economy is growing stronger BUT we need to focus on jobs for people. And we are going to. I think a lot of people feel ignored by Bush at this point. Which only contributes to his reputation of being for the rich and big business.

Corporations don't do their budgets until December - and don't start hiring until after January. This is for the big ticket jobs and expansion jobs. This could explain the low job number. Also - I thought that the 1000 number referred to just December - not the quarter. But yes - things have to be done abotu jobs.

yeah I forgot about this issue. I really have no idea how this is going to impact the election. The fact that Bush wants to actively change the constitution to forbid same sex partners from marrying I think could be an issue for him. I mean that REALLY gets people worked up who don’t think the same. And it turns off the middle of the roaders who don’t want a president using religion to CHANGE things like the constitution to allow discrimination against a group. BUT it also is widely supported by more conservative folks who just don’t want gays marrying. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out and who it effects more.

I don't think it matters too much - because it's not a presidential matter. He can be against gay marriages - but he can't do anything to change the constitution - nor does it look like he has plans to put that before Congress anytime soon.