|
FAQ | Members List | Calendar |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
05-26-2004, 09:57 AM | #21 |
Sapling
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 6
|
Radagast The Brown
"Can you quote where Gandalf says it? I'm not saying you're wrong, just not sure... I've heard he said so." Sure It might take a while. Last edited by Brimstone : 05-26-2004 at 07:12 PM. |
05-26-2004, 10:50 AM | #22 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
|
|
05-26-2004, 07:12 PM | #23 |
Sapling
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 6
|
The Gaffer
"I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs." would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not. Olmer In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve, Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance, Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales. |
05-27-2004, 05:02 AM | #24 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
|
|
05-27-2004, 05:21 AM | #25 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
|
|
05-27-2004, 05:35 AM | #26 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
It seems we have stumbled on another interesting Balrog-debate that doesn't revolves around their wings.
Quote:
I never said Eru Iluvátar created the Balrogs with lesser intelligence on purpose. There is a difference IMO between how Eru Iluvátar created the Ainur and how they became when they entered the bounds of Arda and became the Valar and Maiar. When the Ainur took form here on Arda, they underwent changes and were tied to the element of their form. Quote:
But Glaurung showed more independant thought than the balrogs in the Silmarillion and that's how he brought ruin to Nargothrond and Húrin's family. Whereas the balrogs merely followed Morgoth's orders.
__________________
We are not things. |
||
05-27-2004, 10:29 AM | #27 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,215
|
Originally posted by Earniel
Glaurung showed more independant thought than the balrogs in the Silmarillion and that's how he brought ruin to Nargothrond and Húrin's family. Whereas the balrogs merely followed Morgoth's orders. ________________________ Plus dragons (Glaurung and Smaug) showed a wicked, and dark, sense of humor and/or irony, indicating an acute intelligence. I haven't read much in them, but I believe it's been said by people on the Entmoot that in the HoME series balrogs show an evolution in Tolkien's concepts of them, so one question is what is the most definitive depiction of balrogs (not wings, but size, strength, and intelligence) that can be determined. I think it's possible that there's even a question of how definitive CT's edited Silmarillion is concerning them. Of course, if they're so bright, how come the Moria one needed thousands of years beauty sleep? And apparently wasn't even curious about the outside world after those pesky dwarves woke (him?) up, but was contented to just hang out in Moria. (By the way, what did they eat, little orcsees- like Shelob)?
__________________
Democrat for Kerry-Edwards! Take Back America Aure entuluva! |
05-27-2004, 10:39 AM | #28 | |
Enting
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ertvelde (Belgium)
Posts: 79
|
Quote:
__________________
SOMETIMES I SLEEP SOMETIMES IT'S NOT FOR DAYS THE PEOPLE I MEET ALWAYS GO THEIR SEPARATE WAYS |
|
05-27-2004, 11:44 AM | #29 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
Now you probably will dismiss my posting like crazy idea, but based on the text of the book there was some kind agreement betwen Lorien and Moria. I think, barter: Lorien - food, Moria - precious metals, jewelry. If I would write how I came to it ,it would be very long post, but I say that the hints on it I found in chapter VI of FOTR and chapter III of TTT. Besides, somewhere in the book I have read that among Sauron's allies was also corrupted dwarves. If some dwarves could serve Sauron, naturally comes that some would stay in Moria just being "independent entrepreneurs", and their status on Moria's social ladder would not be on the last step . Quote:
Otherwise at the first moment of recognition of Gandalf's true indentity he would run away as fast as he can. Quote:
Last edited by Olmer : 05-28-2004 at 12:27 AM. |
|||
05-27-2004, 12:51 PM | #30 |
Enting
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ertvelde (Belgium)
Posts: 79
|
I find it hard to believe that a balrog, who's also a Maia, have a brain like a cavetrol, or a dog. I always thought that Maia's were some sort of halfgods and gods and halfgods are supposed to be intelligent...
__________________
SOMETIMES I SLEEP SOMETIMES IT'S NOT FOR DAYS THE PEOPLE I MEET ALWAYS GO THEIR SEPARATE WAYS |
05-27-2004, 01:55 PM | #31 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Quote:
Quote:
I wouldn't go so far as giving a balrog the intelligence of a cave trol or a dog. I do think they're more intelligent than that but definitely not as intelligent as Sauron, dragons or Nazguls. Maybe I'm still running on Tolkien's older ideas of balrogs, since the concept of balrogs did change somewhat in the writing. But somehow balrogs struck me as not having the intelligence of Morgoth's other powerful servants. They have (as it seems to me) an unimaginative, dependant, focussed only on strength and battle sort of intelligence.
__________________
We are not things. |
||
05-28-2004, 07:59 AM | #32 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Israel
Posts: 6,975
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I agree with Earniel, the balrog was strong, and Gandalf, no matter that he was the wisest of the Maiar as said in the Silmarillion, couldn't overcome him. |
|||
05-30-2004, 02:29 AM | #33 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
Quote:
Considering a huge amount of Moria’s dwellers you can’t help to ask a question: how did they provide for themselves in stony, barren, unsuitable for unsupported life underground? Pilferage and robbery of neighborhood villages definitely won’t be enough . Since we didn’t find any mentions of orcs raising a livestock on Caradhras’ terraces, or Sauron’s convoys with humanitarian help , it implies that they have to have some other source of the foodstuff supply. A barter would be the next suggestion. But what Moria can offer for a food? A precious stones and metals, and in unlimited quantity. So, who could be interested in the time of unrest to exchange food for gems? They, who always had a longing for a beautiful jewelry. That right, the despised, dirty orcs had an agreement with the Elves, and not with “just elves”, but with the Elves of Lothlorien. Now the Elves-lovers will start throwing stones at me for such abominable insinuation . But wait a minute, it’s not my saying. J.R.R.T himself reveals this conception of existence of some kind agreement in very gracious and subtle way, you just have to be a little analytical while reading. Let start with time when the Fellowship met the guards of Golden Woods, when Frodo woke late at night. ”The Elves were gone…A little way off he heard a harsh laugh and the thread of many feet on the ground below.There was a ring of metal. The sounds died slowly away, and seemed to go southward, on onto the woods.” (FOTR,BookII) You don’t have to be an expert on military's spy-diversion activities to know that this is not the way of walking through the full of enemies woods. More so, this laugh and noise was intended to make a forewarning of theirs passing a way ahead, otherwise in confusion you could get an arrow in your back. This troop of orcs had no intention to fight with elves, they more resembles a troop of policemen which in height of chase crossed neighbor’s state line, but weren't worry too much about being certain of the cooperation due an agreement . Soon comes Haldir to give Frodo an account of event :” The three of us couldn’t challenge a hundred (100), so we went ahead and spoke with feigned voices, letting them on into the woods. …None of the Orcs will ever return out of Lorien”. Then later Haldir “REPORTED” to the Company a news that ” the marauding orcs has been waylaid and ALMOST ALL DESTROYED, the remnants has fled…towards the mountains and being pursued”. So, all troop of more than 100 orcs has been destroyed. Right? Wrong! Now, let see what orcs are talking about after capturing Merry and Pippin “Not our orders!…We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.”(TTT,Chapt.III) Did you get it? From the MINES. From the Moria mines! Is not it that same “killed in Lorien”orcs? The same, the same! The Professor tells us about it in very conspiratory way :he just gives us the number and hopes that we will put two and two together : Northerners broke away… over a hundred of them…” Of course , the numbers are approximate, but any way the amount of Northern orcs entering Lorien woods and orcs leaving the Falls of Rauros about the same. None of them was killed in Lorien by elves, they were allowed to pass, and in the light of this facts I could suggest that the Elves and Orcs of Moria had some kind of pact. Since both sides was very much interested in dealing with enemy, I assume that the reason should be to get something unattainable for them in any other way than through exchange . Which means barter. Last edited by Olmer : 05-30-2004 at 08:27 PM. |
|
05-30-2004, 04:58 AM | #34 |
Enting
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ertvelde (Belgium)
Posts: 79
|
I read somewhere that the orcs attacked travellers and killed goats to get food. The tekst also said that they worshiped the balrog and like in so many cultures that could be seen in their armour in witch they tried to imitate the balrog and that they also gave him offers. It didn't say what kind of offers but I think it's very possible that it was some sort of food.
__________________
SOMETIMES I SLEEP SOMETIMES IT'S NOT FOR DAYS THE PEOPLE I MEET ALWAYS GO THEIR SEPARATE WAYS |
06-02-2004, 07:36 AM | #35 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Hm, as interesting as your theory is, Olmer, I can't see the Lothlórien Elves trade with the Moria Orcs. It's like, I don't know, the Witch King going shopping for night-dark cloaks in Minas Tirith...
__________________
We are not things. |
06-02-2004, 09:17 AM | #36 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen; such as: We have not record of the Mouth of Saurons body being found after the colapse of Mordor, and we all know Sauron can reappear sometime in the long furture after his fall. Could either one now be posting on this forum?
|
06-10-2004, 06:42 PM | #37 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Wyoming - USA
Posts: 10,752
|
Quote:
As for keeping all the evil armies of the world fed, clothed and otherwise supplied, I had sort of figured that Prof Tolkien was more interested in simply telling his story than in working out all those logistics. Still... I see where you draw support for your theories on this. Lefty has a point too though (just prior to this post of mine)... and I really haven't been on Tolkien message boards long enough to have run across various 'conspiracy theories' (and I don't mean that in an insulting or condescending way Olmer... just meaning the POV you take that, 'things are not as they are made to appear on the surface')... this being my first MB and only having been on it for about 8 months.
__________________
My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 06-10-2004 at 06:43 PM. |
|
06-11-2004, 05:00 AM | #38 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 06-11-2004 at 05:03 AM. |
|
06-11-2004, 06:33 PM | #39 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
About the Moria orcs- you could also (as I do) look at the "avenge our folk" as also avenging those who Haldir etc. killed. And if more than 100 Northeners broke away, did they ALL get away? Because otherwise the numbers no longer match because there are 100+however many don't escape in Rohan vs. 100 in Lorien.
Oh, and as a student of military history, lots and lots of companies have made much more noise trying to sneak through enemy territory and a harsh laugh and the sound of feet and metal. In fact, that's about as quiet as one could expect a medieval army (and that's what the technological level is) to be. So there is no need to assume that they are being let through. Sure, a modern army makes a LOT less noise, but medieval technology doesn't let you do that. But a very interesting theory, as usual. I still disagree, but that doesn't mean it isn't very well thought out.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
06-21-2004, 01:04 AM | #40 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LI-woods, NY
Posts: 653
|
You all pointed out on the weak sides of my theory. Thanks for taking your time to “get into it”.
Now I will try to work in this points , or just give more insights on some aspects. Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family. It was no need for apologies , but still they were wholeheartedly accepted .I guess that being labeled as local crank sometimes could get through my thick skin and sometimes you want , if not an agreement, but at least an acknowledge that this theories ,as unusual as they are, came through the suggestions in the text given by Tolkien himself ,and therefore should be viewed with the same respect as any others based on popular believe and public acceptance of the story as it is. Quote:
Do you have some plausible alternative, which is based on the text? Just don’t say that Tolkien didn’t think about it, because, as I see from the study of the text , he DID think about it. Quote:
As he admitted , in some cases, when taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself had been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”, like the case of Isildur’s dishonorable death. Tolkien always felt that he is ”reporting “ the events “ imperfectly”, that the story of the book consists the vistas of yet more legend and history. If he would be interested in just telling the story, as many authors do nowadays, he wouldn’t go through “colossal” labor of ”re-writing backwards” trying to work out all these logistic between separate visions of the story as it has been “given”to him , detailing up to boreness in the field of geography, societies structure, linguistics and folklore. Naturally, he can overlook some aspects, but it doesn’t mean that it was not “there“. Quote:
And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the futures, incidents and chapters has been laboriously pondered" Considering the above given Professor’s statement and the fact that he mentioned 3 TIMES the number of Northerners, and every time it was +/- 100, you can’t sign it off as “coincidence”, because it has a persistent repetition . The Orcs , which captured Merry and Pippin, “did not wish to fight “or avenge, they came here with THE ORDER, they had nothing against the Fellowship.Boromir force them to fight and managed to get away. But in a little while they met another group “a hundred Orcs at least” who right away began to shoot arrows, they came there with different purpose: to avenge. If Tolkien cared to mention even smallest # of orcs which was getting killed each time, I’m sure the whole given numbers was very much considered . Quote:
“The three of us could not challenge a hundred”, so it could be 100 +, about the same amount of Northerners which “broke away” before the raid of Rohirrim.As I mentioned above, those 20 orcs, which got killed by Boromir, was from the different , SS (Sauron-Saruman), company, they had an ORDER and was not looming through the woods, but concealing themselves quietly in one place, listening. Quote:
The answer is obvious: they was not looking for the Elves, and when they was ambushing company at Sarn Gebir, this Orcs were tried to kill everyone. They DID NOT have an order to capture the hobbits.They come all the way down with a different agenda. Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship? From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely. I can easily imagine missing by Professor scene, which had happened down on the ground, while Frodo is sitting in the dark, listening as orcs are passing by. “Suddenly clad in gray, tall and grim figure appeared in front of the orc’s leader . “You! Idiots!What the hell you doing here in the middle of the night?” demanded the Elf in shrill whisper. “Ugh!“ the leader stop dead on the track, tensed, but visibly relaxed, recognizing the Elf.”A-a, Haldir!Glad that you, old monkey, did not fall, yet, from the tree.Think your boys won’t mind our noise. We just passing by, chasing after nine thugs, who barged into our house.All Moria’s floor covered with blood! We are looking for revenge .” “Get out of here! It ‘s such politics involved in it, that you and I could get expendable without a second thought! Wait for them near Rauros, they definitely will come there by our boats,”ordered Haldir. “Ho! So serious? Rauros then…Let’s go, boys! By the way, Haldir, do you know is bracelet for my girlfriend ready, yet? She is asking me about it every day. Tell them to hurry up. See yua“… Last edited by Olmer : 06-21-2004 at 01:07 AM. |
|||||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas | Gordis | Middle Earth | 217 | 10-03-2013 03:43 PM |
Stranger than fiction... Real "Rings" | frodosampippinmerry | Lord of the Rings Books | 15 | 03-09-2009 07:55 PM |
Ring's sentience and Ring detection | Gordis | Lord of the Rings Books | 17 | 01-04-2008 09:37 AM |
Did Sauron imprison the Moria Balrog? | CAB | Lord of the Rings Books | 35 | 08-22-2006 02:38 AM |