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12-31-2002, 10:58 AM | #21 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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The point being that Morgoth couldn't create, he eventually devolved into Nihlism. It wasn't the creation, it was the evil.
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12-31-2002, 01:41 PM | #22 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I sadly enough haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet. Artanis, can you tell me why Morgoth put his power into the physical earth?
Well, this is my last post this year. I'm off to celebrate. See you next year!
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12-31-2002, 02:57 PM | #23 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-01-2003, 07:43 AM | #24 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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The Valar also spent their power, but their goal was (sub)creation. I believe Yavanna gave away a part of herself when she created the Two Trees. When those trees were destroyed, she could not make them anew. What the Valar achieved, they achieved only once.
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01-04-2003, 04:52 PM | #25 |
Long lost mooter
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Also, perhaps it's because the Valar made those things for the good of all out of love (?), but Melkor did it for himself only, with domination and destruction of others and their works being his goal, and this was done out of hatred.
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01-04-2003, 05:11 PM | #26 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I also think that since Morgoth knew a fear unlike the other Valar did. He feared not losing something but feared himself being hurt or captured. That's why he hid in dark forts and ran so often. Maybe this fear made him pour more of himself in his creations than the other Valar did.
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01-05-2003, 02:31 AM | #27 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hooray, I'm back home! *gets cup of hot cider and settles down to read the thread*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-05-2003, 02:53 AM | #28 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-05-2003 at 02:55 AM. |
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01-06-2003, 03:02 PM | #29 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Another interesting note about Tulkas - he was not one of the "original" Valar - but after rousting out Melkor,
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-06-2003 at 03:04 PM. |
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01-08-2003, 08:03 PM | #30 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I like this quote about Manwë:
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(hmmm, 4 posts in a row for me - anyone else out there??)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-09-2003, 03:50 AM | #31 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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Also RÃ*an, I agree with you that the Valar also had a bit of the 'preservation' weakness. The Valar were not perfect, and they also could make wrong judgements. Their original intent with making the two trees no doubt were good: To replace the light of the lamps and keep it away from Melkor, but I do think the gross of them became enamoured with the bliss they experienced, and more or less chose to forget their original task, to care for all of Arda.
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01-09-2003, 12:18 PM | #32 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Hello everyone.
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This point illustrates, I think, that Tolkien's conception of "power" in ME is rather different from how power is usually depicted in this genre. It's not about casting spells or psychic powers. Often, power is expressed metaphorically with reference to the essence of a particular character. An example could Tom Bombadil saying that "no-one's ever caught Tom". So, you might not catch him, but that doesn't mean he's any use at siege warfare. The Valar's respective powers would be innate and tied to their essences. Interesting comments about Men; and that Elves regarded Men as being similar to Melkor. I agree with the folks who said that Melkor feared the "gift of Iluvatar" (and the elves probably envied it; great stuff about fate, Artanis). No matter what he did to them, their spirits escaped eventually in death. Clearly, in the example of Hurin (or was it Huor), he preferred to keep him alive and crush his spirit than to kill him. No matter how completely he dominated Men, there would always be new generations with the potential to escape. Which is nice cheers d. Last edited by Dunadan : 01-09-2003 at 12:24 PM. |
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01-09-2003, 12:29 PM | #33 |
The Insufferable
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Remember, even at that time melkor was putting most of his power into domination of the physical world, and the valar weren't prepared to face him on that level. But tulkas was, and so he could beat melkor at his own game.
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01-09-2003, 03:10 PM | #34 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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01-09-2003, 03:16 PM | #35 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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thanks
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01-10-2003, 10:09 AM | #36 | |||
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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I'm not sure that the text states that Yavanna intended to create the trees: Quote:
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cheers d. (PS - I reckon that's a misprint in the text in the quote about Nienna: shouldn't it be "mound" instead of "mould"?) |
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01-10-2003, 10:17 AM | #37 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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The Second Music of the Ainur
What about that last sentence in the chapter?
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For some reason I've got a mental picture of Elvis centre stage with John Lennon tied and gagged in the corner. Lennon: "Imagine there's no heaven..." Manwe: "That's enough of that sort of talk. Backing vocals only for you from now on, mate." cheers d. |
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01-10-2003, 02:32 PM | #38 |
The Insufferable
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That's a pretty funny mental picture.
For some reason I think morgoth and sauron ought to do their own version of 'in the end' (I tried so hard/and I got so far/but in the end/it doesn't even matter). It seems to fit somehow. ]: )
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 01-10-2003 at 02:33 PM. |
01-10-2003, 03:25 PM | #39 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-10-2003, 06:03 PM | #40 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
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