11-10-2002, 06:34 PM | #21 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
But they cannot ruin Ilúvatar's plans, and all of their schemes are to nothing. Ilúvatar allowed Melkor to go to Arda, but what does that show? Simply his respect for free will, and the fact that he has in mind a greater scheme, about which Melkor hasn't any idea. Preventing all evil would have been to demolish free will, and that wasn't Ilúvatar's intention. Free will was what he wanted for his creatures, and that was a great and good gift. If they didn't have free will, then that would remove responsibility and justice. Removing any of these things would create puppets in a happy and joyful universe, enjoy bliss and some knowledge of goodness. Not the kind of world Ilúvatar had in mind at all. His goal is righteous, but not everyone uses their free will to do good. Because Ilúvatar can make the best from all events, good or bad, doesn't mean that he created the bad and can use only bad events. On the contrary, he wants good events, but if the enemy choose to do bad, then he will punish them and use what they did. |
|
11-10-2002, 08:57 PM | #22 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: utumno and angband
Posts: 241
|
those are all very good points and are all well taken. they may very well be the grand scheme of things, i dont know. the key word for me in the previous post was "seem".
i may not agree with your assumptions, but respect them nonethess.
__________________
"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
11-11-2002, 04:33 AM | #23 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
11-11-2002, 11:51 PM | #24 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
As far as the music, I really don't know, but like Artanis, I'd like to hear people's ideas. I never thought of that question before, but my initial thoughts are:
(1) If you want to express many things together by talking, all you get is a loud, confused and obnoxious noise (think crowded train station or something similar). However, many musical "lines" may be sung together and be beautiful. (2) In addition, music allows for many voices to sound at once and make a "whole" that is greater than the sum of its parts; i.e., all of the parts together made a beautiful harmonious melody that was much lovelier than each one singing their part one after another. What do you people think? Does that make any sense?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-11-2002 at 11:52 PM. |
11-12-2002, 01:16 AM | #25 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
Brilliant and beutiful, Rian.
|
11-12-2002, 01:46 AM | #26 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Oh, thank you so much, Lefty! I had really never thought about it before, and as I sat and thought and drank my tea (it must have been the hot tea with cream and sugar that inspired me) those thoughts just occurred to me. It made a lot of sense to me, I'm so glad it made sense to someone else What a good question, Maedhros!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-12-2002, 04:11 AM | #27 | ||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
To me it seems that the will to dominate other creatures by fear or force is the uttermost evil within Ea. I think this is equal to turning against the will of Ilúvatar. Melkor was guilty of this when he descended into Arda, even if it wasn't in his conscious thoughts then. The rest of the Ainur and most of Ilúvatar's children strive to do good, and even if they don't always succeed, they want to fulfill the purposes of Ilúvatar, because they love him and trust him. Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
||
11-12-2002, 04:22 AM | #28 | |
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
I wonder whether Tolkien had any particular affection for music?
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. |
|
11-12-2002, 12:58 PM | #29 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
|
|
11-12-2002, 04:35 PM | #30 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
|
|
11-13-2002, 12:25 AM | #31 | |||||
The Tall
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 578
|
Quote:
If you see The Letters of JRRT # 260: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
|||||
11-13-2002, 02:31 AM | #32 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: charlotte, n.c.
Posts: 1,081
|
Quote:
While I don't know why music was chosen for the creation I am glad it was. I have always been fond of the Professors' creation theory. It is a wonderful allegory using a symphony as the setting. The infinate possibilities for various thematic combinations flowing in myriad directions from a central theme are quite suitable for a creation theory. It allows for "creative creation", with each artist/musician/ainur adding a unique aria to the opus. This symphonic creation is also singular as far as creation theories go in our own human history. At least as far as I have heard. From Christianity on down to the Tree Gods of the Pygmies I have never heard of the universe coming about as the result of a musical! |
|
11-13-2002, 09:04 AM | #33 |
AngAdan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boerne, Texas
Posts: 856
|
You will note in SIL that all spells are sung (perhaps that includes chanting?) Note espesially the magical duel between Finrod and Sauron.
|
11-13-2002, 01:13 PM | #34 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
I find music can move me and inspire me in a way no other thing can. It is elusive and yet eternal. Music is perhaps the ultimate way to create something. To create something with music is IMO to give the creation even more beauty. Also there is rhythm in each and every living thing: heart beats, breathing, etc.... What better way is there to create all this than with music?
Yes! I finally found time to join this thread!
__________________
We are not things. |
11-13-2002, 01:36 PM | #35 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
(thanks, Artanis and Lief )
And that is so true, Artanis, about how with music, it's easy to tell when someone is not in tune with the others. I remembered last night another "creation" story - from the Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis, Tolkien's good friend. From book 6, The Magician's Nephew : Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
11-13-2002, 01:40 PM | #36 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
||
11-13-2002, 04:46 PM | #37 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
If you use this to say that Ilúvatar is responsible for evil, I'd say that the only reason he's responsible for it is in allowing it to be. That is because he gave us free will. He didn't do the evil or make it, but it came from the goodness of one of his gifts. But he turned the wickedness that happened through it to good. I don't think that this implies Ilúvatar has a hand in evil as well as good, though, simply because he allows his creations to do what they wish, and he turns what they do into good. From what is visible of his character in the Silmarillion and LoTR is all good, and I'm willing to contest anything that is brought up against the uprightness of his character. His justice and punishment of evil are very discernable themes, and if he had evil in himself, he would be guilty of the ultimate hypocrisy. I don't believe that J.R.R. Tolkien would have created as the god of his world an ultimate hypocrite, or a creature with evil in itself. All that is shown in the quote is that he won't tolerate evil . . . he will even turn it from being evil in the end so that there is nothing but perfection in the final product of his creation. It came without being a part of his will, but he has ultimate control and so can turn it to the goodness of his final creation. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-13-2002 at 04:53 PM. |
|
11-14-2002, 03:25 AM | #38 | ||||
Greatest Elven woman of Aman
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7
Posts: 4,285
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
--Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 11-14-2002 at 03:37 AM. |
||||
11-14-2002, 11:28 PM | #39 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
An interesting bit from letter #212 re the Ainur and the music:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
11-17-2002, 09:37 PM | #40 | ||||||
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
|
Re: The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë
It seems to me that Melkor is dominating this discussion, so I'd like to introduce some speculations on the other points.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think that some symbolism is evident here, especially since the music is responsible for the creation. The first theme was played correctly-wioth all the ainur, including melkor, in harmony. I think this corrosponds to the original making of arda, which all working together. The dischord represents the waging of warfare upon the valar by melkor. The second theme is the renewed efforts of the valar agains melkor-it is changed, as the valar have change, but it (and they) are still fundamentally the same. The third theme, the only one which we are specefically told about, represents the children of illuvatar. It is typical of them that, like the music, they can take even melkor's seeming victory and turn it to thier own triumph. I think this is the source of the beauty and tragedy of man-Beren, Turin, Farimir, Aragorn, all prevail even in the face of defeat. Just so with the elves; and we read of the fall of fingolfin, not with the looming dread of death and defeat, but with exhiliration. In this way, even the most dischordant notes can be turned into sweet music.
__________________
Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
||||||