Arthurian Legends

[Nurvingiel]

Looking for those facts and differences is great Goldberry. Excalibur (or Caledvwlch [sp?] ) is a great example. It's always there, but in different forms sometimes. Same with the Lady of the Lake (who isn't always included in the legend).

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is the oldest Arthurian legend known, and it's my personal favourite. Tolkien himself did a translation, and I want to read it. I'm sure Mallory did one as part of his tale (I haven't actually read his works yet ). Gerald Morrison's "A Squire's Tale" is an excellent version - a children's book, but highly enjoyable. It's also written in "Tales of Action and Adventure" by Enid (I think) Blythe. I'm sure there are many others. I never get tired of them, I want to read them all!

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Looking for those facts and differences is great Goldberry. Excalibur (or Caledvwlch [sp?] ) is a great example. It's always there, but in different forms sometimes. Same with the Lady of the Lake (who isn't always included in the legend).

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight is the oldest Arthurian legend known, and it's my personal favourite. Tolkien himself did a translation, and I want to read it. I'm sure Mallory did one as part of his tale (I haven't actually read his works yet ). Gerald Morrison's "A Squire's Tale" is an excellent version - a children's book, but highly enjoyable. It's also written in "Tales of Action and Adventure" by Enid (I think) Blythe. I'm sure there are many others. I never get tired of them, I want to read them all!

Oh, nononononono......SGGK may be the oldest Arthurian legend known IN ENGLISH, but there are many legends much older in Old French, Latin, and other languages. The "oldest" in the sense that it is a "fictionalized" account and is the earliest we have (there are earlier mentions of Arthur in "historical sources" and in Welsh texts form the 7th century) are Chretien de Troyes _Yvain_ and _Lancelot_. As much fun as these modern treatments can be, I'm still enamored of the originals!

Forkbeard

[Nurvingiel]

Well, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight was originally in Welsh if I'm not mistaken. It predates the English language as far as I know. (Or maybe it was in Old English.)

My Arthurian history is a little rusty.

I always thought Lancelot was a later addition?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel

My Arthurian history is a little rusty.

Was that a pun?

Forkbeard, I also thought Lancelot was a later addition. I know you're not addressing this, but isn't the oldest historical reference to Arthur an "off-hand" statement in a 7th cent. poem called something like 'Y Goddodin'? There are statements by Gildas (c. 540 AD?) that may incline one toward Arthur, but he's not named)... then I thought the next was 'The History of the British Kings' (oh... who was that author - he was Welsh) in about the 9th cent - and that account was largely a battle log, I think. Wasn't Lancelot an addition by 11th & 12th cent French romantic poets, along with the Round Table and lots of other current 'fixtures' of the Arthurian legends?

btw... I never thought "King Arthur and the Green Knight" was such an old story. I don't believe it's in Malory... but he may have just decided to leave that out.

Also Forkbeard, do you own a copy of 'King Arthur: the True Story' (I think by Philips and Keatman... not sure of those names right now). I thought it was a nice historical account, but later saw it being discredited on Historical Arthur sites. If you have it, what do you think fo it? Unfortunately (EDIT: as you're missing your UT) I loaned it to a friend, who is now having difficulties and hard to contact... and I'm sure returning my books is the LAST thing on his mind...

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Well, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight was originally in Welsh if I'm not mistaken. It predates the English language as far as I know. (Or maybe it was in Old English.)

My Arthurian history is a little rusty.

I always thought Lancelot was a later addition?

Nope, there is a Welsh Gawain (not the right spelling), but the story of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, certainly "Celtic" inspired in some respects, is unique to 14th century Middle English.

Lancelot is a later addition, but we should define what we mean by later. There is no Lancelot in the early Welsh mentions or in Nennius. But by the 12th century there is, particularly I might add in Anglo-French and French sources like Chretien and Marie de France. After that, he's pretty much a regular feature.


Best Wishes,
Forkbeard

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Valandil
Was that a pun?

Forkbeard, I also thought Lancelot was a later addition. I know you're not addressing this, but isn't the oldest historical reference to Arthur an "off-hand" statement in a 7th cent. poem called something like 'Y Goddodin'? There are statements by Gildas (c. 540 AD?) that may incline one toward Arthur, but he's not named)... then I thought the next was 'The History of the British Kings' (oh... who was that author - he was Welsh) in about the 9th cent - and that account was largely a battle log, I think. Wasn't Lancelot an addition by 11th & 12th cent French romantic poets, along with the Round Table and lots of other current 'fixtures' of the Arthurian legends?

btw... I never thought "King Arthur and the Green Knight" was such an old story. I don't believe it's in Malory... but he may have just decided to leave that out.

Also Forkbeard, do you own a copy of 'King Arthur: the True Story' (I think by Philips and Keatman... not sure of those names right now). I thought it was a nice historical account, but later saw it being discredited on Historical Arthur sites. If you have it, what do you think fo it? Unfortunately (EDIT: as you're missing your UT) I loaned it to a friend, who is now having difficulties and hard to contact... and I'm sure returning my books is the LAST thing on his mind...

Heya Val,

Yes, Lancelot and the Round Table are both later additions, and are not simultaneous. One of the interesting things about the Arthurian legends is that (especially the early ones) they don't really concern Arthur at all, and often don't present Arthur very positively. Anyway, that was a tangent.

I think you're thinking of Gerald of Wales, but he's 12th century too.


Re: Mallory, Mallory is about a century or so after the composition of SGGK, and if I recall correctly SGGK is only in a handful (if not a single) manuscript and so doesn't seem to have been widely known (no matter how widely studied today), Mallory may simply not have known it.

I am surprisingly enough, not a big Arthur fan, so I don't have the book you mention.

All the best!
Forkbeard

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Valandil
btw... I never thought "King Arthur and the Green Knight" was such an old story. I don't believe it's in Malory... but he may have just decided to leave that out.

Mallory left a lot of stuff out - like how awesome Sir Kay is! For some random reason, he's portrayed as surly and rude. This from a man who was in jail for rape and armed assault while he wrote a tale of honour and chivalry. (Okay, I have to admit, I've only read the very beginning of Mallory, and the Steinbeck translation, but I still know what he was writing about.)

You guys sure know a lot about Arthurian history! I'm impressed. (You're right Val, we do need an 'impressed' smilie.)
+

[Spock]

I'd just like to say that this is a part of my belief system, such as it is. Several years back I read everything I could on the subject for a period of about three years and then went to England and walked the sites that, to me, were important. It was a two week trek and I must say the psychic and emotional impact has stayed with me ever since.

Oh, I agree that "Excalibur" is the greatest movie made but I also think there was a Hallmark television event (years ago) about Merlin, although the name escapes me.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Spock
I'd just like to say that this is a part of my belief system, such as it is. Several years back I read everything I could on the subject for a period of about three years and then went to England and walked the sites that, to me, were important. It was a two week trek and I must say the psychic and emotional impact has stayed with me ever since.

Oh, I agree that "Excalibur" is the greatest movie made but I also think there was a Hallmark television event (years ago) about Merlin, although the name escapes me.

I think it was just called 'Merlin' - and wasn't all that long ago, was it? I thought it had promise, but when I watched, it ended up being kind of goofy.

Which Arthurian sites did you consider most important? Which version of Arthur is most dear to you? Or did you visit sites associated with various versions?

And that new avatar... it's not Fred Degerburg, is it? Looks kinda like him!

[Spock]

I visited Cornwall. Specific sites included: Tintagel, Avebury, Glastonbury, Silbury Hill, Slaughter Bridge, battle site at Camlann, and a few others that escape me now. These are places I chose based upon my three years of research and felt most probably connected with Arthur. Indeed, impressions, visions and psychic energy experienced convinced me I had chosen well.

The avatar is actually an incarnation of The Master, I believe during the time of the fifth Dr., however, I chose it because I might as well be looking in a mirror.

[Spock]

Oh, last I knew of Fred, he didn't have a beard; merely the "fu man chu" goatee.

[Grey_Wolf]

An Arthurian booklist-site:

http://www.io.com/~tittle/books/arthurian.html

For interested parties.

[Grey_Wolf]

When I was at the Gothenburg Book Fair in September I saw a stand with amongst others Kevin Crossley-Holland's Arthur Trilogy (which I've now ordered. Scheduled for february 2005).

[Spock]

..Could you give me an idea of what this trilogy is about....did they give any "blurbs" about it.?? Thanks.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Spock

I visited Cornwall. Specific sites included: Tintagel, Avebury, Glastonbury, Silbury Hill, Slaughter Bridge, battle site at Camlann, and a few others that escape me now. These are places I chose based upon my three years of research and felt most probably connected with Arthur. Indeed, impressions, visions and psychic energy experienced convinced me I had chosen well.

The avatar is actually an incarnation of The Master, I believe during the time of the fifth Dr., however, I chose it because I might as well be looking in a mirror.

Would you believe I have been to Cornwall and not Tintagel!?!

My uncle was showing me around England, and he said Tintagel is just a few old stones and it's a tourist trap. But we did go to Stonehenge, also a tourist trap, but still super awesome! I wish I had gone to Tintagel though. I can kil- I mean ignore the tourists (of which, of course, I would also be one).

You are so cool for having done that Spock! Aren't Arthur and Guinevere supposed to be buried at Glatonsbury? Guinevere makes sense, because didn't she retire to a nunnery after Camlann (where is the battle site?)? However, Arthur can't possibly have a grave anywhere in normal ordinary England, he has to be buried at Avalon!

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Spock

..Could you give me an idea of what this trilogy is about....did they give any "blurbs" about it.?? Thanks.

The Seeing Stone:
Arthur is a young boy growing up on the Welsh borders in 1199. More than anything in the world, he wants to be a knight, but he also knows that there is something strange about him. Can the stone that Merlin gives him provide the answer?

At the Crossing-Places:
Second volume in the Arthur trilogy. 'Subtly addressing many timeless, worrying issues of justice, ambition and privilege within a tangible, accessible context, this could well be the best audio of the year' - Independent.

King of the Middle-Marches:
In Venice, 1201. thousands of soldiers are mustering in readiness for what will be the fourth crusade. Young Arthur de Caldicot, squire to Lord Stephen, is among them. It is thrilling to be part of this great gathering; but his eyes are soon open to the realities of warfare and politics.

I've taken this info from internet-bookshops

[Nurvingiel]

Thanks for the blurbs GW! Is that about the real King Arthur? Because I don't understand the timeline. 1199?

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Thanks for the blurbs GW! Is that about the real King Arthur? Because I don't understand the timeline. 1199?

Your welcome, nurv. The Timeline? Yes, I think he's done some kind of real Arthur story.

[Spock]

Thanks for the blurbs. It sounds like literary license has gone afield in this instance. I'll not buy them.

[Nurvingiel]

Lol Spock.

I have trouble with Arthurian legends set too late in history (and I personally think the early 13th century is really pushing it).

The best real Arthur story I've read is "The Skystone", by Jack Whyte. It's set in the early 6th century. The timeline and political climates seem more plausible for this legend to unfold, not like I know that much about the 6th or the 13th centuries... but legends aren't just how the facts stack up, but how they feel to the reader.