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04-18-2006, 01:27 PM | #21 | ||
the Shrike
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You will understand that given that her husband has just passed away, I will not be pestering her directly about this, though. In any case, since you like "evidence" : Quote:
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04-18-2006, 01:48 PM | #22 |
the Shrike
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Lotesse, Hitler also said, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." -- April, 1922.
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04-18-2006, 01:51 PM | #23 | |
the Shrike
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04-18-2006, 02:58 PM | #24 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Hitler, his Christianity, & the Church
O.k., the following is an excerpt from a well-researched essay explaining Hitler's christianity and church ties -
Hitler’s involvement with the Church: a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria. b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.) c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus. f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell) h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust: Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs. Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Perhaps, Gwaimir, Hitler was feeling fed up with being christian by 1941, or his heavy drug use and increasing tyrannical craziness was causing him to start to vacillate on what his ideas, beliefs and desires were, but for his entire life, he had claimed christianity and been an active part of the church. By 1941, which is three years before his death & the end of the Nazi Party's reign, the damage had already been done from this "back-sliding" christian. Who knows, maybe he said some prayers to himself before he bit that cyanide capsule, in the hopes that at the last minute, he could get rescued by god & avoid hell. Who knows. Anyway, the point I am trying to make with all this about hitler's christianity is to show that great evils have been done with the mantle of christianity, just as with islam today. And also what The Gaffer said yesterday; he hit the nail on the head: Quote:
"God With Us"
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 03:23 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 03:36 PM | #25 | |||||||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Bottom line: He did NOT support the Church, he persecuted her. It is I suppose quite likely that certain churchmen preached Nazi ideals, but the Church did not. I highly doubt that Hitler placed Catholic teaching in public education; this was a primarily Lutheran country, though Catholics were a large minority. Quote:
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He raged a war against homosexuals, yes, but that is something the Catholic Church does not do. As to coporal punishment, while I believe in it, it is hardly Church teaching. Quote:
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EDIT: I think this remark was inappropriate.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-18-2006 at 03:42 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 03:37 PM | #26 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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04-18-2006, 03:39 PM | #27 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Spock, indeed, Hitler certainly does not seem to have been an atheist, either.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 03:41 PM | #28 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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RE-EDIT: Attempt to stay on the Muslim track edited out. Good call, mods.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-18-2006 at 03:53 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 03:54 PM | #29 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 03:55 PM | #30 |
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Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem
But in conclusion, it makes me very sad that you seem to have such hatred for Christianity that you will clutch at any straw to flaunt in the face of Christ, and instantly jump upon any means of condemning Christianity. I am sincerely sorry for that Why does it make you sad? Oh, and incidentally, don't be sad! I no more hate Christianity than I do Islam, or Hindu, or Judaism, or Buddhism, or any other religion. I dislike organised religion, period, and always have, and that is my perogative - don't be sad! However, whether or not Lotsy loves or hates religion hasd nothing to do with the facts at hand. Try not to be insulting, please, Gwaimir. If all you can say in response to the very thorough post I answered you with is to say that it makes you sad that I have such hatred for christianity," then... I actually do really resent you telling me that I will "clutch at any straw to flaunt in the face of Christ," that is insulting. At least I made the effort to give you a very well researched and elaborate essay in response to your posts. And for the record, I love Christ, he was an awesome figure of history; his teachings were gentle, wise and beautiful. Mohammed was an awesome, brilliant man too, I hear, although I haven't read the Koran. I read the bible very thoroughly, though, and studied it to pieces while I was growing up. It is a beautiful masterpiece, very fascinating and brilliant writing and ideas in the bible. So please don't accuse me of being filled with hatred. You could not be furthur from the truth on that one. I want peace in the world, not violence and hate in the name of some god. The whole reason why I even pursued the Was Hitler Christian argument here was to prove my point from the beginning that all the major religions of the world have been guilty of massive evils against humanity, not just today's fundy Islam, and not just the Crusades. That Islam is no more capable of evil - as a religion - than is Christianity. Gwaimir, I don't try to insult you or your religion, please try to refrain from insulting me and my ideas.
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 04:25 PM. |
04-18-2006, 04:14 PM | #31 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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EDIT: Ack! I have to put my response back on again! And I don't still have it! From scratch it is
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I recognize my fault in posting that remark, and I sincerely apologise. I should not have said it. It was uncharitable and cruel, and I ask your forgiveness. Quote:
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But also, it seems that the reason you were pursuing was not to merely say that major religions (for which, in the present discussion, we may substitute 'Christianity', though other religions would be appropriate substitutions at other times) were guilty of evils against humanity aside from the Crusades, but specifically that the Holocaust may be placed at the feet of Rome, which I disagree with.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 04-18-2006 at 04:24 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 04:24 PM | #32 |
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I never said that the Holocaust could be placed at the feet of Rome. I also do not think that modern terrorism should be placed at the feet of Mecca. But Christianity was and is utilised by evil men to furthur political agendas, just as Islam was and is utilised by evil men to furthur political agendas. Hitler, bin Laden, whatever.
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04-18-2006, 04:27 PM | #33 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Quite the dance of post, edit, and re-post we're having here, eh?
You did, in an indirect sort of way. Of course, that undercurrent ran throughout, but especially here: "e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus." You very nearly state explicitly that Hitler was acting in perfect accordance with the will of Rome.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-18-2006, 04:30 PM | #34 | |
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That second statement, that's I guess sort of like "Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people" or however that gun slogan goes. Religions don't kill people; people with religions kill people. Well, you get the general idea I'm trying to convey! So on that statement I agree with you, although it seems like kind of a point of semantics now. But thanks for retracting that statement. At first, it really had hurt my feelings! But it's all good now.
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04-18-2006, 04:31 PM | #35 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm glad to hear that.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-18-2006, 04:32 PM | #36 |
Elf Lord
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Hilarious.
Hitler wasn't any more a Christian than George Bush is. Politicians don't have religious convictions unless it gains them power. When it gains them power then they can become fanatical, and inspire fanaticism. (Of course this isn't limited to religion by any means, maoism and stalinism are recent examples of personality cults) You can tell Hitler's convictions by looking at his actions: expansion of empire. An empire has to be built on a power base, and the one that he chose, or happened upon, was Teutonic pride. Anti-semitism is something hardly new in Europe. It has become internalized. One of the easiest ways to build up a power base is to look for a scapegoat, to "elevate" your power base. It was a handy tool to grab more power, that also probably tied into some of his own psychotic fears. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_325b.html That's the sort of thing that happens when your physician is feeding you a daily cocktail of methamphetamines... Paranoia becomes an overriding concern. http://amphetamines.com/adolf-hitler.html In short, he was a psychotic/charismatic politician (you can easily translate that as evil, but it's an oversimplification) with deep seated childhood traumas and insecurities and an amphetamine addiction who happened to come from a christain society, and the internalized conflict that comes with it. What difference does it make that it was a christian society? Would the results have been any less tragic if it had been a Mulsim society, or hindu, or taoist, or atheist/secular? Not really. There are plenty of "Hitlers" throught history, from diverse cultures. He just happens to be one of the most well known. It isn't a religious phenomenon, it's a human phenomenon. Which means that no matter what religious or secular system is in place, things like this will continue to happen, at least until humanity changes at some fundamental level. If you want RELEVANT discussion, you should see if you can spot the next madman. I would indeed wager that he (or she) will come from an islamic society, the conditions are ripe for someone of sufficient charisma and twisted drive to add another chapter to mankind's glorious history...
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04-18-2006, 04:34 PM | #37 | |
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I really need to get out of here & go to work; my whole day is being poured into this argument. I can't believe how much of the day has already gone by. Must log off. I'll be back by later on tonight, or tomorrow! Ciao!
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04-18-2006, 04:38 PM | #38 | |
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 04:42 PM. |
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04-18-2006, 04:39 PM | #39 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm not quite certain how Hitler could be supported by the Church for decades before he came on the scene...? Anyway, I await your response to my response to your point-by-point post.
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04-18-2006, 04:51 PM | #40 | |
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*raises hand* Ooo, oo - I can guess the next madman! Maybe it's Bush! And he uses Christianity. Not Islam. Both Islam and Christianity are waging war with "each other," in this century, right now, as we speak. The West, with Christianity, against the East, with Islam. Organised religion is utilised by both major religions to furthur evil ends. I'd like to discuss this post with you, too, Blackheart, when I come back later on & I have the time.
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 04-18-2006 at 04:53 PM. |
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