07-04-2003, 11:46 AM | #21 | ||
Elf Lord
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the second one has a geologist totally demolishing the nonsense presented on the Creationist side. These are supposed to be helping your cause?
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07-04-2003, 01:16 PM | #22 |
Elf Lord
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I don't really want to get up to my throat in this topic again, particularly during one of my two vacation days. I have taken two days off of school, and have been enjoying the immensely . However, I saw your plight, RĂ*an, and would like to take some time to give some information to support the Bible's early creation stories.
Evidences for Recent Catastrophe Desert formation of Gobi-Sahara in 4000 BC via RC dating Early settlements in South America and eastern North America Coalification: peat bog + limestone + ocean fossils + peat bog . . . (60 times in one spot) Full size trees found in coal reserves, intact 10m iguanadon skeletons, Rapid mountain formations: Alps (human settlements: 4900 ft, 8000 ft), Andes (city 12,500 ft.) Huge single lava field (Oregon, Washington, Idaho), 200K miles squared x 5000 ft deep (similar in India) Fossil fields indicating sudden mass extinctions (measured in billions in several selected spots - Scotland, Italy, Switzerland, U.S., etc.); whale skeletons above glacial deposits, above sea level (440 ft-600 ft: North of Lake Ontario, Vermont, Montreal; formation of large sediments with terrestrial animals at foothills of Himalayas; large deposits of animals in Swialik hills of central Burma sandstone sediments; along with fossilized wood; scores of dinosaur skeletons in New Mexico and Wyoming; Indo-European Languages spread throughout the world and originating from one place Globa pyramid constructions Creationist Sources: Magnetic moment decrease over past 170 years (small change now, greater changes then) Natural Gas fields have gas escaping at fast rate Oil pressure of oil fields imply less than 7K to 10K years old Average depth of topsoil is 8 inches. It takes 300-1000 years to form one inch of topsoil. Niagara Falls: the cliffs erode at 7 feet per year. The length of the gorge is 7 miles, implying about 5 to 10 thousand years age Mississippi River dumps 300M cubic yards of mud into the gulf every year, but delta not large. Indicates delta forming for past 4000 years. Miss. Delta = 40ft. deep, Nile is 30-45 ft deep, Rhine 180 ft, Rhone > 300 ft, Ganges 60 feet. Ur was seaport, now 200 miles from sea. Absence of ocean erosion on cliffs, etc. Ocean sediments: Recent past, rate was 10x to 100x as fast as now. Rate of coral growth implies 3500 years old. Max age of redwoods and other trees around 4000 years to 4600 years. Mutation age of redwoods and other trees around 4000 years to 4600 years. Mutation load (natural tendency is for gene pool to decrease). Human history to 3000 BC (or 2400 BC?) Indo-European language similarities throughout world (even North and South America). Population growth (typically, throughout history, it is exponential growth, also in Bible) Science Writer Richard Milton Long Earth inconsistencies: 4.6 billion year earth, but 3.8 billion year fossils. Lava dates 465,000 years, that was less than one thousand years old. Some modern lava (hawaii, 1801) dates from 160M to 3B years old using potassium-argon dating. New Zealand (1000-year lava field [radiocarbon]) dated 465,000 years by potassium-argon. Dinosaur skeletal fossils require tens of meters of sediment (not a few millimeters). Young Earth sources: Uranium decay dating in atmosphere implies few hundred thousand years. Salt in ocean from land erosion should take 100M years (if assume run-off constant). Radiogenic (lead-produced) helium in atmosphere: 1.5M years. Helium 4 in atmosphere: 175,000 years old. |
07-04-2003, 01:26 PM | #23 |
Elf Lord
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Evidences for rapid change of radiocarbon:
Unbalanced RC equation permits changes in RC levels. Large deviations in radiocarbon dates in individual ancient sites: Tarim mummies: 4000 yr mummy and neighbor 6000 yr mummy Jericho: nomadic hunters remain in the same spot from 10,000 BC to 4,000 BC European cave art: unchanged between 30,000 BC and 5,000 BC. Gobi-Sahara desert formation Sphinx water damage at base (unlike "contemporary 4th dynasty monuments") Sphinx: 2076-2085 BC, so how did it get so wet? Khufu pyramic RC samples: 3809BC+or- 160, 3101BC, 3090-2855BC+or- 104, Khafre pyramid: 3196-2723BC; Menkaure pyramid: 3076-2067BC All of the above pyramids are now known to date after 2300 BC. Other pyramids (compare with Babel), some significant sumberged indicating significant water depth changed through water levels not significantly altered: 6 pyramids of Aspero, Peru (3500BC-2700BC), ziggurats of Sumer, stupas of India, Shang Dynasty pyramids (1300BC-1100BC), Aztec Teotihuacan: Pyramid of the Sun and Pyramid of the Moon, (around 250 AD), Mayan pyramids (550AD-950AD), Peru (1900BC-1400BC), Irish burial ground Newgrange, Silbury Hill in England (2660BC), Yonaguni Monument off Japan's Ryuku Island in East China Sea (under water), 2200 ft down in water off west coast of Cuba see pyramids, road, and buildings - but water levels not substantially changed over past 10,000 years. Pyramid at Mahabalipuram sea port, under 15-21 ft of water in India. Core steppe pyramid at core of most great Egyptian pyramids. Sumer: corners face eastwest, Egypt: sides face east-west. Babel (apocrypha - work of Nimrod) Similar religious significance, and similar myths (Old and New Worlds) Sumer text (2000 BC) and (and Bible) say mountain rose out of the sea to form land. Debate: (Independent Inventionists or Diffusionists) Settlement of America over Bering Strait supposedly 11,500BC-11,000BC (9500BC RC date) Monte Verdi, Chile settlement 12,700BC to 10500BC (11000BC-9000BC) Luzia skull in Brazil matches African skulls (not Asian) Oldest North American Indians, Clovis hunters fall b/w broad-faced Indians and narrow faced Europeans, also used European identical stone-age technology (Solutrean - France and Spain). Solutrean ended in Europe 14000BC, showed up North America full blown 11500 years ago. Most North American Indians show origin from Siberia, but not oldest North Americans from Europe, Middle East, and Africa (Haplogroup X). (Sioux and Ojibway Indians). Evidence of Homo Erectus travel to New World (more than 1 million years ago). Note from Lief: I found this next piece especially interesting Myth: Maya records indicate they came from other side of the sea, where the sun rises. Mayans have Garden of Eden type myth. Aztecs have Noah's flood account: Only two people, Coxcox and his wife, survived flood floating in a boat that came to rest on a mountain; Aztec inscription shows dove offering to children of Coxcox, born mute. Neighboring Mexican tribe adds details of animals and birds in boat. Tehzi replaces Coxcox, sent out raven that did not return, then dove that returned, then hummingbird that returned with a twig. Aztec: giants built pyramid of Cholula, destroyed by fire because gods angry at men. Aztec: trace origins to goddess Cioacoati, first goddess & mother of all, brought suffering in childbirth and sin into the world, called Serpent woman and depicted with snake near her. MesoAmerica (Maya) and Egypt/Sudan have snake as symbol of wisdom. "Shipwrecked Sailor" story of Egyptian washed ashore on an island, carried by a snake to its favorite lair, told by the snake he would return into another Egyptian ship when it returned, but then no longer return because the land would be covered with water. (Atlantis type myth). |
07-04-2003, 01:50 PM | #24 | ||
Elf Lord
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I can provide back-up information on some of these items, but not very much. They are notes my Dad took when he was researching a class he was going to lead on science and faith. I hope they are found interesting. There are more I have, but those really delve into the Bible and require a shift in chronology, and I hesitate from changing the subject at this point. RĂ*an, a quite good creationist site for you to get information from would be this one: http://evolution-facts.org/1 evich06b.htm
Just a little bit more I'd like to give, an especially flashy one : Quote:
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07-04-2003, 02:36 PM | #25 | |||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lief Erikson
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...continued
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-04-2003 at 02:39 PM. |
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07-04-2003, 02:54 PM | #26 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-04-2003, 03:54 PM | #27 | ||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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uranium-234: half life = 244 thousand years, 0.0055% of all uranium. uranium-235: half life = 704 million years, 0.72% of all uranium. uranium-238: half life = 4.5 billion years, 99.28% of all uranium. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-04-2003, 04:12 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Regarding the "delta" theory, please note the actual movement of the mississippi delta in the diagram. Notice also the deltas subside after time due to de-watering of sediments and sediment loss due to coastal erosion. Also note the period covered is 5000 years. Little or no southward movement. Extrapolating sediment rates based on whether Ur was a seaport or not in very unscientific.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-04-2003, 04:14 PM | #29 |
The Dragonqueen
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go rian!wOot!
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07-04-2003, 04:39 PM | #30 | |||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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The earth is not a static place. Quote:
A bunch of quotes by individuals with more agenda than brains. Were are the actual facts? All on the evolution side of the aisle.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-05-2003 at 12:51 PM. |
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07-04-2003, 08:57 PM | #31 | ||||
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Are you trying to tell me Grey Mouser that sediment formed over those trees planted in bogs over long periods of time? Just answer my question and I'll get back to you.
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I think that's enough...moving on. Quote:
People get tired of each other, they kill each other, families move to different locations, So let's say a family moved to Iceland. Their diet changes, and so their jaws begin to change, because of that they might have to change a few words in their language because their jaws are larger. As things go on, their children have to chew touch meat for survival and their jaws become stronger, and then they have to change MORE words. This can happen in a few generations. That's not what I believe, but it's not really provable at this time...so Oh one more thing. Cirdan you mentioned that the whole of the US was under water...I wonder how that could have happened. Perhaps a WORLD WIDE FLOOD would explain that perplexing question? Cheers, Sam. ps. DON'T GANG UP ON ME OR LEIF PLEASE...WE ARE ONLY 2 IN A GROUP OF WHAT...6!?
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07-04-2003, 09:06 PM | #32 | ||
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I am not getting into this much but I can't sit by and let Samwise's post go by.
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The theory of evolution says NOTHING WHATSOEVER about what happens after death. AND Chrisitianity is no more special than any other religion - you just BELIEVE that Christianity is more plausible. Maybe you should look up what evolution is? You and Lief have just posted a bunch of Creationist lies, but thats ok. A lot of creationists use the Grand Canyon as an example of a world wide flood - that makes no sense. It could not have been caused by a great flood - only by being carved by the river rushing through it after millions of years. Continents being underwater can easily be explained - glaciers and ice melting so the sea level rises, shifting continents (ever hear of Pangea?). The reason most early civilizations have flood myths is because they all lived on the banks of big rivers which often flooded.
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07-05-2003, 12:17 AM | #33 |
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Yawn... somebody call me when the creationists begin to pose a real challenge.
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07-05-2003, 12:23 AM | #34 | |
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Or when those that believe in evolution can give concrete proof that turns the theory to fact. Rian, sorry but I think you are flogging a dead horse here........until science or God deem otherwise, everyone is just working on (or arguing about) their own belief. :/ |
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07-05-2003, 03:24 AM | #35 | ||
Elf Lord
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-05-2003, 04:04 AM | #36 | |
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And the young earth theory is ridiculous. The earth hasn't changed that much since written records for thousands of years. Now you're telling me that in the past things happened overnight and now just slowed down to a crawl. Also - why isn't "god" creating any new creatures? Did he suddenly go on strike?
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07-05-2003, 04:57 AM | #37 | ||
Elf Lord
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Lief, glad to see someone jumping in to help carry the load for Rian, but I don't think the scattershot approach of your first two posts is a particularly useful way to discuss these issues. In some of your comments I had no idea what you were talking about.
The third one is better; pick one or two subjects and back them up. Since you post a lot about ancient civilisations, and since your dates for the Flood all seem to cluster around 2500 BC I'm wondering about a slight problem. This quote from Answers in Genesis, one of the main YEC organisations: Quote:
So, 160 years after the Flood , about 2350BC, we have a population of 3000 people. The Tower of Babel happens around this time, and the population is scattered into different groups, the biggest of which would be well under a thousand people. So, one of these groups of several hundred people wanders down to Egypt and promptly builds all the pyramids and the Sphinx. Quote:
Even with a doubling rate of 19 years (which assumes nobody dies before reproducing, i.e. requires us to assume that a Bronze Age people populating a new land would have a zero mortality rate) Assuming that 800 people went to Egypt and they all stayed there (no-one moved out to populate the rest of Africa or Arabia) After 100 years, using ridiculously optimistic growth rates, you still get a population of under 30,000 - and half of them will be children; the adults would be pretty busy trying to feed all those new mouths. Not much manpower available for moving a couple of million limestone blocks.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-05-2003, 05:14 AM | #38 | ||
Elf Lord
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The "exploding" Bombardier beetle story was exploded years ago- major YEC sites have long since dropped it from their lists. Quote:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-05-2003, 05:29 AM | #39 | |
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The people in Finland generally have stronger and larger jaws than other people. That's because of their language with complicated consonants. It's the Finnish language that has made the Finns' jaws larger. It's not their jaws that've created the language.
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07-05-2003, 08:09 AM | #40 | |
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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