The Ring Revealed at Osgiliath!

[markedel]

Actually it could be read differently:

There's no palantir so something has to spur Sauron to fight. In this case Sauron thinks the ring is in the possession of Gondor and he must strike before a wielder appears.

[Entlover]

I've just seen TT! Splendiferous.

No one has suggested the following: it seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself, and the fact that Sam tackled and stopped him barely in time, suggest to me that it was meant to be a close call, but that the ring was not actually revealed.

And no one said anything about, "Now Sauron will know just where we are" -- which surely would have come up if they thought it had been revealed. PJ should have done something like have Sam say, That was a close call, good thing Nazgul can't see in bright light . . . but he didn't so it's left open to speculation. (I guess Sam was busy trying to stay alive.)

But I still think the ring was not spotted.

[ShrikeArghast]

I thought the entire 'revealing of the ring' at Osgiliath was just a poor move by Peter Jackson trying to make improvements to an already solid story--and a failed try at that.

That whole 'extended bout with Faramir' ruins 3 things in Return of the King which were once so balanced, and will now be in need of further fixing and changes in order for the story to be repaired.

-First, and most obviously, is the revealing of the ring at Osgiliath. In the books, Sauron believes that Merry and Pippin are the two ringbearers, and that they somehow slipped under his nose in Isenguard, but that the two are still there, somewhere in or around Rohan. Thusly, his eye is turned Northwest when it should be really gazing Southwest, where Frodo and Sam are slipping into Mordor. Now that 'allowance' for the two to just sneak in is destroyed. Sauron, being the crafty evil genius that he was intended to be, would quickly upgrade the guard at every eastern pass-- ESPECIALLY Cirith Ungol. Once Frodo was caputred, I very much doubt that the confusion over his identity that resulted in the books would happen. Sauron's minions would know who and what they were looking for, and as soon as the ring wasn't found on Frodo, they would conclude that Samwise was still out there, and would have begun abitiously searching for him. In short, PJ has so seriously altered the story that by all rights he damns Frodo's quest to fail. Frodo will, of course, miraculously avoid such a fate, but PJ really messed things up royally with this.

-Secondly is that The Two Towers was intended to end quite sourly for the forces of good, with the bitter/sweet victory at Isenguard but Frodo's apparent slaying at the claws of Ungoliant's cursed broodling in the pass at Cirith Ungol. By extending the Faramir/Frodo sequence, PJ held over the battle in the pass until the next movie, erasing what would have been plenty of time for Frodo to be stung and carried off, leaving the audience to worry over Frodo's apparent demise for the next year. I don't for a second buy off on PJ being some kind of an artistic genius. I believe he's a fair director at best, who obviously has little-to-no comprehension of the tale he is trying to tell.

-Finally, in the books Faramir comprehends Boramir's failure to deal with the ring's power almost immediately, and only suffers from temptation for a few seconds. He sppears to be--and rightly so--a really great guy, someone quite the match for the elegant Eowyn. By extending Faramir's lust for the ring into something that was only stopped by Frodo's ridiculous trance-like state (which, in of itself, just paints Frodo to be an even bigger weakling than he already was), PJ has made the second son of Denathor out to be just as easily corrupted as his brother. For shame, PJ, Faramir was a better man than that.

Overall I liked The Two Towers, but only the parts involving the divided fellowship and the brief sequences concerning Gollum. Everything that included Elijah Wood was immediately tainted by the guy's horrible acting abilities, and further spoiled by PJ's corruption of Tolkien's work. Too bad the character that is supposed to be our hero had to have his storyline ruined by stupid things like that.

[akutach]

Turgon,

That's very thorough.

Allow me to point out that it's very unfair to criticize PJ's capacity for deep thought. Communication is an inherently two sided affair. Unfortunately, the bulk of the viewers are not as savvy to difficulties of crossing the Great River as you are and they probably assume some boats are involved. If PJ assumes throughout the two movies that everyone picks up on everything, and shoots the films accordingly, then there are about million people in the world who could really follow what's going on and why.

Personally I found the map scene a bit insulting as well as clumsy in its execution, but some people need a very helping hand. It must be assumed that thse people will not to sweat the details too much, and that they realize that 1) Faramir's not such a bad guy after all, and 2) Frodo's on his way while 3) Sauron knows where the ring is on that day.

Enjoy the 95% that is fantastic. Grin an bear the annoying 5% and consider that those moments are like commercials - they make the finances of the film work.

ShrikeArghast, I agree completely except I rather have enjoyed Elijah Wood.

[Dunadan]

This is an interesting discussion. I agree that the map scene was very clumsy, and the cross-Anduin teleportation service deeply suspect. If anything, though, there should have been a map bit earlier on; to non-afficionados it was very confusing what was going on.

I would be really disappointed if that ridiculous scene was a substitute for Pippin looking into the Palantir. However, there's still room for that in ROTK; I reckon it was just to remind the multiplex cattle that the ring was spooky and scary and an excuse to have some more Nazgul in.

The Osgiliath scene could've been great; did not the Nazgul attack the bridges in the book? How cool would it been to have had street fighting between Dunedain of Gondor and the Nazgul? However, they copped out. I also think that they didn't do Faramir's eventual rejection of the Ring very well. And I'm getting sick of seeing the same mournful look on Frodo's face.

cheers

d.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Entlover
I've just seen TT! Splendiferous.

No one has suggested the following: it seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself, and the fact that Sam tackled and stopped him barely in time, suggest to me that it was meant to be a close call, but that the ring was not actually revealed.

But wait I thought the Nazgul could basically smell the presence of the ring basically. They are controlled by the ring(s) basically and in many ways its the source of their evil power so detecting it would be simple for them. Thats why they are drawn to the hobbits when they are hiding under the tree because they sense the ring is around somewhere but they arent totally sure. So if someone is standing there holding it in their outsretched arms for them to take Im SURE they detected it.

Now heres where i REALLY agree that this is an unforgivable lapse on the part of Jackson. Lets think like Sauron for a moment shall we. Sauron basically can see (feel?) what his nazgul see or feel so as SOON as the nazgul "saw" the ring so did sauron. Now if you are Sauron and you see the ring is basically on the outer borders of Mordor what do you do? well you INSTINTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area. Kill everything. Find the ring. Its THERE NOW! You immediatly give orders for every orc and evil beasty to drop whatever they are doing and swarm down on that tiny city like a hail storm that never ends. Now how long do you think it takes the nazgul to fly at full speed from their city in mordor to Osgilliath (sp?). 5 minutes? 10? Whatever they will be there before Frodo and gang can get out of town and they will find it and game over people. Game over.

MAYBE if after Frodo had showed the ring all the characters had freaked out and been like "oh &@^%!!! We have to get out of here now!!! Quick!!! Run!!! Theyve seen it!!" But they didnt. They just acted like ok that was fun now lets get back into our little adventure. Wee. So I have a feeling that bit will just be glossed over in the third movie as if it was a close call but now its all forgotten. Eeesh.

Anyway sorry. Ive wanted to get that off my chest for a month now.

[Jonathan]

well you INSTINTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area.

The only hope Frodo has after revealing the Ring, is that Sauron can't in his wildest fantasies imagine that Frodo is going to Mt. Doom to destroy the Ring.
So if the Nazgûls don't find him and Sam immediately, they should be able to continue their journey relatively safely.

[Black Breathalizer]

The Scene: A classroom at the prestigious Tolkien Academy where Tolkien Scholar, Professor Black Breathalizer is teaching.

Professor BB: Okay, class, today’s first question: Was the ring “seen” by the Nazgul in the TTT movie?

Entlover: It seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself, and the fact that Sam tackled and stopped him barely in time, suggest to me that it was meant to be a close call, but that the ring was not actually revealed.

Professor BB: Excellent, Entlover. You are CORRECT!

(Surprised gasps from the other students.)

Insidious Rex: But wait I thought the Nazgul could basically smell the presence of the ring basically. They are controlled by the ring(s) basically and in many ways its the source of their evil power so detecting it would be simple for them. That’s why they are drawn to the hobbits when they are hiding under the tree because they sense the ring is around somewhere but they aren’t totally sure. So if someone is standing there holding it in their outstretched arms for them to take I’m SURE they detected it.

Professor BB: Sorry IR. But the movie’s internal logic is that the Nazgul detect the presence of the ring only when it is worn. If it were otherwise, then the Nazgul WOULD have grabbed Frodo underneath the big tree root and WOULDN’T have stabbed him on Weathertop.

(A magic moment of enlightenment as the class begins to understand.)

Professor BB: Let’s assume that the Nazgul “felt” the ring in Osgiliath for this sake of our next discussion. Using the logic of the movies, is there anything wrong with that?

Insidious Rex: YES!!! Sauron basically can see what his Nazgul see or feel so as SOON as the Nazgul "saw" the ring so did sauron. Now if you are Sauron and you see the ring is basically on the outer borders of Mordor what do you do? Well you INSTANTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area. Kill everything. Find the ring. It’s THERE NOW!

Professor BB: You are on the right track, Insidious. But your geography is wrong. Osgiliath is in Gondor. Having Sauron believe the ring is in Gondor enhances the movie’s plot instead of detracting from it. In the book, we are led to believe that Sauron fears Gondor and fears the ring has gone there. Based on the movie’s logic, if Sauron is told by his Nazgul Captain that the ring was “sensed” in Osgiliath, then it gives the audience an understanding of why the Dark Lord would immediately send -- as you mentioned -- an all-out attack against Gondor. In fact, this will be shown in ROTK. We are told by Tolkien that the success of the Ringbearer’s quest depends upon Sauron thinking anyone of might who possesses the ring would naturally want to USE IT against him. Since the ring was sensed in a battle for Osiligiath, it only supports the belief that the ring is being used by the Lords of the West as an instrument of war against him.

Class: (in unison) Oooooooooooooooooh!!!

(Another magic moment of enlightenment.)

********
Disclaimer: Please hold your flames. This post is meant in fun using real quotes. No offense whatsoever was intended to the posters mentioned.

[BeardofPants]

And this furthered the discussion, how?

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
And this furthered the discussion, how?

It requires reading to understand, BoP.

[Turgon]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
And this furthered the discussion, how?

LOL. I asked my self the same question when I read BB post.

[Jonathan]

You are on the right track, Insidious. But your geography is wrong. Osgiliath is in Gondor

No, Insidious Rex's geography is completely right, Osgiliath IS on the outer borders of Mordor. One could say that Osgiliath is in Gondor (the city has been the capital, duh), but the city is in the lands that the Gondorians call Ithilien, right outside of Mordor. So Ithilien and Osgiliath is on the outer boarder of Mordor. You can't say it's not.

But the movie’s internal logic is that the Nazgul detect the presence of the ring only when it is worn. If it were otherwise, then the Nazgul WOULD have grabbed Frodo underneath the big tree root and WOULDN’T have stabbed him on Weathertop.

Well, the Nazgûl couldn't see the Ring, only feel it's presence. Since Frodo didn't wear the Ring in Osgiliath, the Nazgûl wasn't sure if the Ring was there or not.
BUT you can read in the books that the animals that the Nazgûls used had GREAT eyesight. One must assume that this goes for the movie as well. That "dinosaur" MUST have seen the ring, even though the Nazgûl didn't.

So I think that Insidious Rex is more right than Professor BB

[Black Breathalizer]

Thank you, Jonathan, from saving this thread from another attack from the bubble gum-popping crowd. It was my fault for trying to have fun with the usual quote/answer approach.

Originally posted by Jonathan
No, Insidious Rex's geography is completely right, Osgiliath IS on the outer borders of Mordor. One could say that Osgiliath is in Gondor (the city has been the capital, duh), but the city is in the lands that the Gondorians call Ithilien, right outside of Mordor. So Ithilien and Osgiliath is on the outer boarder of Mordor. You can't say it's not.

Ithilien is part of Gondor too. Yes, part of it has been overrun by Mordorian orcs, but soliders of Gondor still occupy it. The true border of Mordor is far from Osgiliath. It could be argued that the tower of Cirith Ungol is the true border into the land of Mordor.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer


Ithilien is part of Gondor too. Yes, part of it has been overrun by Mordorian orcs, but soliders of Gondor still occupy it. The true border of Mordor is far from Osgiliath. It could be argued that the tower of Cirith Ungol is the true border into the land of Mordor.

wel thats what it was there for. But At the time of Lord of the rings All of illithen was pretty disbuted area both would lay a claim to it.

The eastern side of Osgiliath (which is built of opersite sides of the great river) was held by the enemy and that been the only major town its fair to say all lands on the eastern side of the Aundian were the enemys

[Insidious Rex]

cocky know-it-all student Insidious Rex stands back up to question the Professor some more:

[QUOTE]...Was the ring “seen” by the Nazgul in the TTT movie? ......It seems to me that the Nazgul did not see the ring. Nazgul do not see well in daylight. Did anyone see it react? The way Frodo was holding it, moving his finger closer as he yielded to the hypnotic suggestion of the ring to put it on and reveal himself...

ok wait wait wasnt Frodo holding the ring OUT TOWARD the Nazgul? Or am I confusing myself. And if the Nazgul had no idea that the ring was there being held out before him why was it carefully stearing its flying stead toward Frodo ever so carefully as if to pluck something of a very delicate nature. If it wanted to snag Frodo himself would he have not just swooped down and snatched him like a bail of hay?

Professor BB: Sorry IR. But the movie’s internal logic is that the Nazgul detect the presence of the ring only when it is worn. If it were otherwise, then the Nazgul WOULD have grabbed Frodo underneath the big tree root

But why did the Nazgul stop at all there? And why was he sniffing around as if he smelled... something familiar? Yes when its worn its like an alarm call to the Nazgul but even when its off theres still some attraction there is how they made it seem. And that would only make sense since these former humans were corrupted and made undead by the rings themselves. And THIS ring controlled them all.

and WOULDN’T have stabbed him on Weathertop.

Why not?

Professor BB: Let’s assume that the Nazgul “felt” the ring in Osgiliath for this sake of our next discussion. Using the logic of the movies, is there anything wrong with that?

Insidious Rex: YES!!! Sauron basically can see what his Nazgul see or feel so as SOON as the Nazgul "saw" the ring so did sauron. Now if you are Sauron and you see the ring is basically on the outer borders of Mordor what do you do? Well you INSTANTLY order ALL your nazgul to hightail it over there ALL of them and go after that hobbit or anyone who was in the area. Kill everything. Find the ring. It’s THERE NOW!

Professor BB: You are on the right track, Insidious. But your geography is wrong. Osgiliath is in Gondor. Having Sauron believe the ring is in Gondor enhances the movie’s plot instead of detracting from it. In the book, we are led to believe that Sauron fears Gondor and fears the ring has gone there. Based on the movie’s logic, if Sauron is told by his Nazgul Captain that the ring was “sensed” in Osgiliath, then it gives the audience an understanding of why the Dark Lord would immediately send -- as you mentioned -- an all-out attack against Gondor. In fact, this will be shown in ROTK. We are told by Tolkien that the success of the Ringbearer’s quest depends upon Sauron thinking anyone of might who possesses the ring would naturally want to USE IT against him. Since the ring was sensed in a battle for Osiligiath, it only supports the belief that the ring is being used by the Lords of the West as an instrument of war against him.

But Proff theres the underlying point of the speed of the Nazgul and how long it would take to get from wherever they were (Im thinking most were in or around Mordor at the farthest) to that point in Osgiliath (which may be part of Gondor but its closer to Minas Morgul then to anything else). According to the maps Ive looked it it would have been a real short flight at top speed. And whether Sauron thinks men are going to use it against him or not he now knows its THERE very close so when the nazgul get the word their mission is clear. And as I see it its game over. But Jonathan makes a good point. And if they had realized the seriousness of what just happened and they flipped out and gotten out of town as fast as possible then MAYBE they would have slipped by the nazgul. Maybe... But they didnt. They acted like it was no problem at all. Which gave me cramps when i saw it.

********
Insidious sits back down and awaits the proffesor's resonse. oh and hey how does one get an A in this course?

[Jonathan]

Just a little point:
Ithilien and Osgiliath is in Gondor, right next to Mordor. Therefore, Osgiliath is on the outer borders of Mordor.
Cirith Ungol is in Mordor, right next to Gondor. Therefore, Cirith Ungol is on the outer borders of Gondor.

This is how I see things

[Black Breathalizer]

Hey, Insidious Rex, of course I'd give you an A...for effort.

In response to your points:

Frodo DID NOT offer the ring to the Nazgul. At first glance, it looked that way. But if you watch that scene closely, you'll see that he was struggling with himself about whether to put on the ring and had the ring in front of him because it was still around his neck on the chain.

But I would agree with you that the Nazgul have a general sense of where the ring is and I would also agree that much of eastern Gondor has been overrun, including Osgiliath. But I stand by my statement.

In Sauron's mind, he would not view the knowledge that the ring had been "felt" in Osgiliath with, "Hey, I'd better watch out, the ring is in Mordor." Instead he would view it the same way the Book Sauron did: "The Lords of the West are preparing to use my ring against me."

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Just a little point:
Cirith Ungol is in Mordor, right next to Gondor. Therefore, Cirith Ungol is on the outer borders of Gondor.

I understand where you're coming from. But TECHNICALLY Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul are parts of Gondor that have become occupied by Mordor. When Nazi Germany occupied parts of France during WWII, it was still considered French soil.

[Jonathan]

I didn't mean that the lands of Gondor belonged to Mordor. I meant that the eastern lands of Gondor can be seen as the western border of Mordor.
It shouldn't take long for the Nazgûls to fly from the middle of Mordor to eastern Gondor.

You understand where I come from? I am neither Nazi nor German if that is what you meant. I am a Swede and I agree that the occupied lands of France still were French. The lands where occupied, not annexed.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I didn't mean that the lands of Gondor belonged to Mordor. I meant that the eastern lands of Gondor can be seen as the western border of Mordor. It shouldn't take long for the Nazgûls to fly from the middle of Mordor to eastern Gondor.

I understand what you meant. I just meant from Sauron's point of view, he wouldn't associate Osgiliath with Mordor in the same way Hitler wouldn't have viewed Paris at part of Germany. Also, Sauron feared Aragorn or Gandalf possessed his ring now. So his mindset isn't to "snatch" the ring, but to defeat the ringbearer before he gains too much power. He wouldn't fly his Nazgul to Gondor without a strong army to back them up.