The Last Samurai

[Nurvingiel]

Algren and Taka's romance is Western because a Japanese woman, especially in the late 1800s, would not have had a romance with Algren the way she did, and when she did (so near her husband's death).

It makes sense Algren would want a Western romance, being one himself. Taka behaves as a Westerner would, making in a Western romance.

[Millane]

you have to take the circumstances into account, the way she was acting (when she went to see Katsumoto, and before that) is that the way you thought she should be behaving? because if it was i still think that Katsumoto telling her that it was her husbands karma would have meant something, and he was living with her, whats to say that she wouldnt have developed feelings for him, either way they only acted upon it with a little kiss they mainly kept it to themselves...

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Millane
you have to take the circumstances into account, the way she was acting (when she went to see Katsumoto, and before that) is that the way you thought she should be behaving?

She was fine until she started taking off Algren's shirt (???) to put on the armour.

because if it was i still think that Katsumoto telling her that it was her husbands karma would have meant something, and he was living with her, whats to say that she wouldnt have developed feelings for him, either way they only acted upon it with a little kiss they mainly kept it to themselves...

I do appreciate that it was subtle (for Hollywood anyway). I just don't think she would have even kissed him. She may have wanted to, but she wouldn't have kissed him.

Minor point, that showing your teeth when you smile is a sign of agression in Japan (I don't know if it still is), and Japanese women wouldn't smile like that.

[Jonathan]

Here, the film has its première today. I will probably go see it this weekend. Ever since I read the book Shogun by James Clavell I have been interested in Japan and its samurais, and I hope the movie will meet my expectations.

[BeardofPants]

Went to go see it in Wellington when I was waiting for my 3am(!) ferry to the south island. Completely unmemorable, and extremely cheesey. It felt like it was a rip-off of Dances with Wolves or something.

edited for spelling errors: sorry, just got off the plane.

[Millane]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Went to go see it in Wellington when I was waiting for my 3am(!) ferry to the south island. Completely unmemorable, and extremely cheesey. It felt like it was a rip-off of Dances with Wolves or something.

edited for spelling errors: sorry, just got off the plane.

completely unmemorable blood pressure rising feel urge to hit someone with bokken
ooooh your lucky Ujio isnt here to give you a sound beating
hmmm lets see what was completely amazing and memorable in the film
1. Unparralleled fighting scenes in a movie ever.
2. Acting from Ken Watanabe, he's perfect tom cruise normally sucks but his performance wasnt too bad and hey even if you hate him you'll enjoy watching him being beaten (because he's nothing compared to Ujio)
3. Amazing score from Zimmer.
4. Heroic story and characters, right down to Hasagawa.
5. Brilliant blood, this can make a movie, and if the movie is already incredible it makes it perfect.
6. ive forgotten so much stuff so this point will just include basically the whole movie i also think re-watchability counts for something, you can watch it over and over again...

She was fine until she started taking off Algren's shirt (???) to put on the armour.

i really see no difference between this and her looking after him at the start.

I do appreciate that it was subtle (for Hollywood anyway). I just don't think she would have even kissed him. She may have wanted to, but she wouldn't have kissed him.

thats not how they acted, that is how it was considered proper to behave, it was also considered improper to have a child outside of marriage in western countries, did that mean it never happened?
cheesey i just saw that, ohhh BoP i thought you would appreciate a fine film when you saw it

[BeardofPants]

Sorry, not COMPLETELY unmemorable - remembered how terrible Cruise was, and how odd that there was NZ foliage all the way through it.

Sorry Millane - just didn't click for me.::shrug:: It lost me after the first few unoriginal moments of indigenous peoples sympathy. I kept expecting to see Kevin Costner instead of Tom Cruise.

[Millane]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Sorry, not COMPLETELY unmemorable - remembered how terrible Cruise was, and how odd that there was NZ foliage all the way through it.

Sorry Millane - just didn't click for me.::shrug:: It lost me after the first few unoriginal moments of indigenous peoples sympathy. I kept expecting to see Kevin Costner instead of Tom Cruise.

comment about Ken Watanabe and Hiroyuki Senada
i have hated Tom Cruise in every movie he has ever been in except this, his acting wasnt terrible, he played a drunk as good as any
i dont understand the unoriginal moments of indigenous peoples sympathy
have you ever seen anyone move better than Ujio with a sword?
and Ken Watanabe was at DDL's Bill the Butcher standard (maybe even better )

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Sorry, not COMPLETELY unmemorable - remembered how terrible Cruise was, and how odd that there was NZ foliage all the way through it.

That was one mistake. Japan doesn't have enough countryside to film scenes like that, so the forest battle and the village scene were filmed in New Zealand, among others.
One of my best friends just got back from living in Japan for a year, and she kept noticing the scene changes from Japan to New Zealand.

Sorry Millane - just didn't click for me.::shrug:: It lost me after the first few unoriginal moments of indigenous peoples sympathy. I kept expecting to see Kevin Costner instead of Tom Cruise.

Was he in "The Last of the Mohicans"? Because it had a similar plot to that.

I enjoyed it immensely; the mistakes didn't get in the way for me too much, except I didn't like parts of the ending.

[Millane]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Was he in "The Last of the Mohicans"? Because it had a similar plot to that.

I enjoyed it immensely; the mistakes didn't get in the way for me too much, except I didn't like parts of the ending.

hmmm i dont think of them as similar plots at all, DDL was in Last of the Mohicans he was Hawkeye... they are similar in the fact that Hawkeye wasnt as cool as Uncas or Chingachgook just like Algren wasnt as cool as Ujio or Katsumoto... Tom Cruise wasnt in Last of the Mohicans if thats who you were reffering to

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Millane
hmmm i dont think of them as similar plots at all, DDL was in Last of the Mohicans he was Hawkeye... they are similar in the fact that Hawkeye wasnt as cool as Uncas or Chingachgook just like Algren wasnt as cool as Ujio or Katsumoto... Tom Cruise wasnt in Last of the Mohicans if thats who you were reffering to

Yes, that's the only aspect I was referring to.

[Spock]

It seems that the title confuses people by being both singular and plural in useage. In fact the title seems to have been meant as the plural; i.e. the Samurai as a class of people.
Of course I'm recovering from a bug, loaded with antibiotics and this may have been covered already.

[Nurvingiel]

This has not been covered already, I hope you feel better soon.

You can also say "one Samurai", or maybe the title was intended as "The Last of the Samurai". However, I don't think every single Samurai in Japan was killed in the final battle.

I think the title symbolizes the end of an era.

[GrayMouser]

Well....it was pretty.
And Ken Watanabe was very good.

And I liked the scene where the new recruit has to fire his rifle and the officer starts firing his pistol and the recruit gets all nervous and the officer says " these men aren't ready to fight the Confederates"... oops, wrong movie (right director)

[GrayMouser]

When I saw the final scene where the Emperor is ready to sign the trade and friendship treaty with America and Algren talks him out of it, I realized that "The Last Samurai" is actually a 'prequel'...

To "Pearl Harbor"

Thanks a lot, Nate.

[Millane]

YOU SUCK GREY MOUSER
we'll see who's smiling with ujios katana through there belly

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Millane
YOU SUCK GREY MOUSER
we'll see who's smiling with ujios katana through there belly

Aha, but I'm an evil Western imperialist, and as Hillaire Belloc pointed out;

"Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not."

(From "The Modern Traveller", 1898, written on the breaking of the charge and wiping out of 10,000 Sudanese desert warriors by Lord Kitchener's guns.)

Or an even more jingoistic one from Kipling's "Barrack Room Ballads" (screw-gun= light field artillery):

"For you all love the screw-guns--the screw guns they all love you!
So when we call round with a few guns, o' course you will know
what to do--hoo! hoo!
Jest send in your Chief an' surrender--it's worse if you fights
or you runs:
You can go where you please, you can skid up the trees, but you
don't get away from the guns!"

"The Screw-Guns"; 1892.

Hey, I enjoyed the movie but really question the point-of-view; and I think the movie takes itself seriously enough for me to do that- I don't believe that the director felt he was just making a blood-and-guts action movie.

The pivot, for me, was the scene in the council chamber when the modernizer Omura confronts Katsumoto and says something like (I only saw it once):

"And what will your Samurai do when the Western armies come?"

Katsumoto: (approx.)"And how much of your wealth do you share with the people?"

The way this guy dodges a straight answer, he should be in the Democratic debates.

The correct reply is "We will die a noble and glorious death and Japan will become a colony of the Western imperialists"

Just like the Zulus and the Manchu bannermen and the warriors of the Mughals, or any other brave and gallant fighters who were crushed by the Western powers in the Imperial Age.

Fortunately (for Japan), the Japanese rulers were smarter than that.

Final quote, from Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilisations":

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."
----------



As someone who's spent more than twenty years living in non-Western countries I'll vouch for that.

[GrayMouser]

Just realised that the last lines from "The Screw-Guns" is a great message to Bin-Laden:

"Jest send in your Chief an’ surrender it’s worse if you fights or you runs:
You may hide in the caves, they’ll be only your graves, but you can’t get away from the guns! "

[Millane]

"Katsumoto no longer dishonors himself by using firearms"
that is why war has lost all of its honor, the use of modern weapons has ****ed honor and now we wage war at the drop of a hat because of it...
it seems by your post that you arent having a go at the movie but at Samurai and their ways, was that what your doing
i think the bit you were referring to was when Katsumoto says japan has become a nation of whores then Omura says if we are then the samurai made us this way then Katsumoto says he hasnt seen the Omura family giving money to the poor (not exact quotes but you get the idea) Katsumoto isnt dodging the question he is addressing it and defending his honor by saying that the Samurai have no part in Japans westernisation...

[Falagar]

*tries to ignore other posts, to evade spoilers*

Hoping to see the movie either this weekend or the next. Looks very promising...