The Lay of Leithian - Release from bondage - Page 2

BeardofPants · 12-17-2002, 01:33 AM

Artanis is correct; HoME 3 = Leithian.

Artanis · 04-01-2003, 04:59 PM

Digging up this again.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ã‘Ã³lendil
Leithien = "release from bondage".

It can also mean "England". In his comments to the poem CRT says:

Quote:

My father never explained the name Leithian 'Release from Bondage', and we are left to choose, if we will, among various applications that can be seen in the poem. Nor did he leave any comment on the significance - if there is a significance - of the likeness of Leithian to Leithien 'England'.

Is there a significance here, and what would it be?

I'm sure I read a note on the word 'Leithien' somewhere in HoME or Letters recently, but now I can't find it. Darn.

Fingolfinrox · 04-10-2003, 08:14 AM

Yeah the Lay is a great work, but it's to short. It ends right with Carcaroth and Beren, which isn't exactly a logical stopping point.

That's very interesting about words meaning England.

***Fat middle*** · 04-10-2003, 02:02 PM

i just got the Lay of Leithian. I didn't want to buy HOME 3 because in Spain it's difficult to find the original (English) versions, and i thought that for verses a translation would always be poor (judging by the results of the translations of LOTR verses).

i've put it all in a Word file to read it better. i'll read the notes later.

i'm begining it and so far it's wonderful.

Artanis · 04-10-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fat middle
i'm begining it and so far it's wonderful.

Sure is. But you should try to find 'Lays of Beleriand' because The Lay of the children of HÃºrin is magnificent also.

***RÃan*** · 04-10-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fingolfinrox
Yeah the Lay is a great work, but it's to short. It ends right with Carcaroth and Beren, which isn't exactly a logical stopping point.

I know!! I just about got a heart attack when it stopped so suddenly at that exciting point

Quote:

Too swift for thought his onset came,
too swift for any spell to tame;
and Beren desperate then aside
thrust LÃºthien, and forth did stride
unarmed, defenceless to defend
TinÃºviel until the end..

(note - the first 'he' refers to Carcharoth, the dreadful wolf)

*sniff* that 'defenceless to defend' phrase really gets me *sniff*

Artanis · 04-10-2003, 04:57 PM

Found it! HoME 4 - 'Sketch of the Mythology' has several indications of the word Leithien (Luthien) meaning England, or Britain.

Quote:

Maidros and Maglor' submit. The Elves set sail from Luthien (Britain or England) for Valinor.' Thence they ever still from time [to time] set sail leaving the world ere they fade.

Quote:

The Elves march to the Western shore, and begin to set sail from Leithien (Britain or England) for Valinor.

Quote:

The Elves of the Outer Lands (Great Lands), after the conquest of Morgoth, set sail from Luthien (later emended to Leithien), explained as 'Britain or England'. For the forms Luthany, Luthien, Leithian, Leithien and the texts in which they occur see III. 154. It is remarkable that as S was originally written Luthien is both the name of Thingol's daughter and the name of England.

Artanis · 04-10-2003, 05:01 PM

Does anyone know why Tolkien abandoned the Lay? I don't recall reading anything about it in Letters or HoME ...

BeardofPants · 04-10-2003, 05:16 PM

I'm pretty sure that Chris mentioned it in one of his editorial comments; something like he ran out of time and interest?

Artanis · 04-10-2003, 05:18 PM

Time I can believe, but interest?

***Earniel*** · 04-10-2003, 05:39 PM

Maybe there was another lay he wanted to work on. Judging by 'Letters' the poor man never had time for finishing anything.

Artanis · 04-10-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Chris

You make it sound like he's your mate

***RÃan*** · 04-10-2003, 08:15 PM

BoP just loves Chris!

BeardofPants · 04-11-2003, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
Time I can believe, but interest?

I didn't mean a loss of interest, per se, but a shift in interest.

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
BoP just loves Chris!

Can I help it if the man writes waffley drivel? Who wants his opinion anyway?

***Fat middle*** · 04-12-2003, 07:21 AM

Quote:

In his sleep
he felt a dreadful darkness creep
upon his heart, and thought the trees
were bare and bent in mournful breeze;
no leaves they had, but ravens dark
sat thick as leaves on bough and bark,
and croaked, and as they croaked each neb
let fall a gout of blood; [...]

that man could write!!!

Artanis · 04-21-2003, 04:43 AM

Hey Fat middle, have you finished the lay yet? Aren't you terribly upset by the abrupt ending?

***Fat middle*** · 04-21-2003, 06:22 AM

Not yet. I've been short of time to read this week and i do not want to read it fast: i know the story, so what i want is to enjoy the verses.

I'm on chapter 6th, but i've enjoyed a lot what i've read so far.

Artanis · 04-21-2003, 06:33 AM

True, it shouldn't be rushed. Enjoy.

I saw your statement about how difficult it was to find the English version. Are the lays translated into Spanish?

***Fat middle*** · 04-21-2003, 09:57 AM

Yes, all HOME is translated into Spanish. I've read some of them, but for the Lays i wanted the original version, so i searched the net till i found them.

I know this may be illegal, but i don't think they'd pretend me to buy the original version if they don't sell it in my country.

Artanis · 04-21-2003, 11:12 AM

I wouldn't worry if I were you. In case you do. Probably not.

The Spanish version must have been a good challenge for the translator. I'm rather happy they doesn't come in Norwegian.

In which language did you read the other books?

12-17-2002, 01:33 AM	#1
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Artanis is correct; HoME 3 = Leithian. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

04-10-2003, 08:14 AM	#3
Fingolfinrox Sapling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: West Virginia, USA Posts: 11	Yeah the Lay is a great work, but it's to short. It ends right with Carcaroth and Beren, which isn't exactly a logical stopping point. That's very interesting about words meaning England. __________________ "And Morgoth came." - The Silmarilion "To pursue the unattainable is insanity, yet the thoughtless can never refrain from doing so." - To Himself, by Marcus Aurelius.

04-10-2003, 02:02 PM	#4
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	i just got the Lay of Leithian. I didn't want to buy HOME 3 because in Spain it's difficult to find the original (English) versions, and i thought that for verses a translation would always be poor (judging by the results of the translations of LOTR verses). i've put it all in a Word file to read it better. i'll read the notes later. i'm begining it and so far it's wonderful. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

04-10-2003, 05:01 PM	#8
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Does anyone know why Tolkien abandoned the Lay? I don't recall reading anything about it in Letters or HoME ... __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

04-10-2003, 05:16 PM	#9
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I'm pretty sure that Chris mentioned it in one of his editorial comments; something like he ran out of time and interest? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

04-10-2003, 05:18 PM	#10
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Time I can believe, but interest? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

04-10-2003, 05:39 PM	#11
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Maybe there was another lay he wanted to work on. Judging by 'Letters' the poor man never had time for finishing anything. __________________ We are not things.

04-10-2003, 08:15 PM	#13
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	BoP just loves Chris! __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

04-21-2003, 04:43 AM	#16
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Hey Fat middle, have you finished the lay yet? Aren't you terribly upset by the abrupt ending? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

04-21-2003, 06:22 AM	#17
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	Not yet. I've been short of time to read this week and i do not want to read it fast: i know the story, so what i want is to enjoy the verses. I'm on chapter 6th, but i've enjoyed a lot what i've read so far. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

04-21-2003, 06:33 AM	#18
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	True, it shouldn't be rushed. Enjoy. I saw your statement about how difficult it was to find the English version. Are the lays translated into Spanish? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

04-21-2003, 09:57 AM	#19
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	Yes, all HOME is translated into Spanish. I've read some of them, but for the Lays i wanted the original version, so i searched the net till i found them. I know this may be illegal, but i don't think they'd pretend me to buy the original version if they don't sell it in my country. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

04-21-2003, 11:12 AM	#20
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I wouldn't worry if I were you. In case you do. Probably not. The Spanish version must have been a good challenge for the translator. I'm rather happy they doesn't come in Norwegian. In which language did you read the other books? __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 04-21-2003 at 11:13 AM.

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