Martin Luther King Day

[Finmandos12]

And then they turn around and wonder why it is that things like alcoholism and suicide are so epidemic on reservations.

Oh come on. That was hundreds of years ago, that doesn't explain modern problems. Thats why I dislike the whole slave reparations movement: people should stop using the past as an excuse for their problems, and try to fix them themselves.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
Oh come on. That was hundreds of years ago, that doesn't explain modern problems. Thats why I dislike the whole slave reparations movement: people should stop using the past as an excuse for their problems, and try to fix them themselves.

I agree with you on slave reparations - I had no part in slavery what so ever - so why should I pay? So many other people in this country have come here without any clothes on their back (including my family) and we pulled ourselves out of the ghettos. My family was practically slaves in the late 1800's and early 1900's sweat shops.

There are people - such as Al Sharpton, like I said - who would rather keep black people at the bottom - because it keeps them with a job. As long as the left insist on making blacks out to be victims - blacks will always feel like victims. Affirmative action is an example of this. many blacks feel that Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice - are not black because they have succeeded- "they've sold out". I thought that was the whole idea of the American dream - to be the best you can be and raise yourself up.

Concerning Indian alcolism - it is still a problem. But it's a problem because of genetics. Europeans have been drinking alcohol for 1000's of years - our bodies have evolved and are able to handle it better. I have a friend who is 100% Mohawk who lives on Six Nation Indian Reserve - she's considered a outcast and not a good Indian because she had lived off the reserve growing up and had gone to college and is now studying to be a nurse. She constantly has complained how the Indians on the reserve just want to get drunk and complain about their lives - but don't want to do anything to make their lives better. In colonial times in New Jersey it was actually against the law to sell or give Indians alcohol, punishable by jail time, because Indians couldn't handle alcohol.

Indian activists, similar to th Al Sharptons in the black community - would rather keep their "own" people down and as victims. Indian activists would rather complain about mascots and things - instead of building schools, businesses and commerce on the reserves. It is funny how these activists never complain about the Red Faced gas station on Six Nations with it's huge sign of a face of an Indian - which looks very similar to the mascot of the Cleveland Indians (which was actually named in honor of one of their best ball players). I also like how they point out there are no white mascots similar to the Chiefs or Indians - when there are , such as the Patriots, Vikings, Kings, etc. What's the difference between the Kings and the Chiefs? Is it because the Indian activists want continue to make Indians feel like the victims?

Trish also thinks that this whole mascot thing is ridiculous. Her grandfather was also chief of Six Nations Indian reserve - which is one of the largest reservations in North America.

[Firekitten2006]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So I am guessing you dont look cherokee at all.

It doesnt matter if you look like you are or not to get college help. You have to have at least two registered family members. And your name on the scrolls.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Indian activists, similar to th Al Sharptons in the black community - would rather keep their "own" people down and as victims. Indian activists would rather complain about mascots and things - instead of building schools, businesses and commerce on the reserves....<blah blah blah more prattle about mascots>

Oh you have got to be kidding jerseydevil. You are going to blow off the much bigger picture here and turn this into some petty tirade about indian mascots? who cares. Thats not the point. The point is when you take peoples lands away and take away their way of life, put them on reservations with no resources no hope for the future where the jobless rate is as much as 90% in some places and then turn around and say hey ok yall are americans now. now stop yer whinning and pull yourself up by your boot straps and get on with life like proper americans. Im not an indian activist and neither are you so lets not pull a red herring into this when we are talking about something else. and when you say their problem is genetic that sends up major red flags all over the place . The fact of the matter is not every indian is in a position to make some monster casino on their reservation and make money off the white folk. thats impracticle and theres very very few other resources available to them. so its easy to say oh they just need to get their act together and stop complaining because my great grandparents made something of themselves and look at me now. but its not as easy as you seem to be describing it. if your grandparents were cherokee indians left landless and hunted and chased from their lands herded into resourceless reservations with vial school conditions and they managed to achieve the american dream despite everything stacked against them then yeah you would be the perfect candidate to make such speaches like that and I would encourage you to go back to the res and SHOW others how you did it and that it can be done.

But... since thats not the case and since my comment was simply about teaching kids about what happend to the indians not about giving them money or something lets just talk about THAT not about mascots or anything else.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Oh you have got to be kidding jerseydevil. You are going to blow off the much bigger picture here and turn this into some petty tirade about indian mascots? who cares. Thats not the point. The point is when you take peoples lands away and take away their way of life, put them on reservations with no resources no hope for the future where the jobless rate is as much as 90% in some places and then turn around and say hey ok yall are americans now. now stop yer whinning and pull yourself up by your boot straps and get on with life like proper americans. Im not an indian activist and neither are you so lets not pull a red herring into this when we are talking about something else. and when you say their problem is genetic that sends up major red flags all over the place . The fact of the matter is not every indian is in a position to make some monster casino on their reservation and make money off the white folk. thats impracticle and theres very very few other resources available to them. so its easy to say oh they just need to get their act together and stop complaining because my great grandparents made something of themselves and look at me now. but its not as easy as you seem to be describing it. if your grandparents were cherokee indians left landless and hunted and chased from their lands herded into resourceless reservations with vial school conditions and they managed to achieve the american dream despite everything stacked against them then yeah you would be the perfect candidate to make such speaches like that and I would encourage you to go back to the res and SHOW others how you did it and that it can be done.

But... since thats not the case and since my comment was simply about teaching kids about what happend to the indians not about giving them money or something lets just talk about THAT not about mascots or anything else.

I agree with teaching what happened to the indians - but I'm surprised others don't know about this. We were taught about the trail of tears and everything. Also contrary to many people's beliefs - not all Indians were peace loving. There was butchery on both sides.

Also = have you ever been to an Indian reservation? I have - many many times and spent weeks there. I'm talking from experience and also the experiences of one of my best friends and her family, who is Mohawk and part of the Turtle Tribe. I've gone to the Six Nations Pow Wows. I've spent Easter there, I have spent summers there and I have been there in the middle of January and October.

By the way - Six Nations doesn't have ANY casinos on the reserve. There is however a casino in Brantford and a casino on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls, but these are not Indian owned.

[Finmandos12]

if your grandparents were cherokee indians left landless and hunted and chased from their lands herded into resourceless reservations with vial school conditions and they managed to achieve the american dream despite everything stacked against them then yeah you would be the perfect candidate to make such speaches like that

So according to your logic, no one can criticize anyone else if they haven't been in the same situation. You know, truths are not relative to each situation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
...I would encourage you to go back to the res and SHOW others how you did it and that it can be done.

As Trish says - first the people you want to help -need to want to actually be helped - not just receive handouts and excuses for their plight.

A lot of people on the reservation would rather steal cars and drive them around and then set them on fire than get an education. The last time I was there for about 4 days - I saw 3 cars that happened to. Sorry - but that is ALSO what Trish and her family say too. There are hardworking Indians on the reserve - with thriving businesses - but you have a distorted view.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Finmandos12
So according to your logic, no one can criticize anyone else if they haven't been in the same situation. You know, truths are not relative to each situation.

No. According to the logic from the statement I made, jerseydevil would not be the perfect candidate for making "make yourself better" speaches to native americans. which im sure he would agree with since being the perfect anything is quite a lot to ask. and thats all. this aint math slick. dont try to make it into an if-then logic circuit.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
No. According to the logic from the statement I made, jerseydevil would not be the perfect candidate for making "make yourself better" speaches to native americans. which im sure he would agree with since being the perfect anything is quite a lot to ask. and thats all. this aint math slick. dont try to make it into an if-then logic circuit.

Well I just called Trish a half hour ago to find out her opinion and if it has changed. I asked her if she still felt that the Indians on the reservation were just as lazy as they were before - she said "Oh yes! But not as bad as it had been." She went on to say that many Indians who left the reservation to get an education and get jobs off the reservation have been coming back. So they have had an influx of professionals coming in.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As Trish says - first the people you want to help -need to want to actually be helped - not just receive handouts and excuses for their plight.

A lot of people on the reservation would rather steal cars and drive them around and then set them on fire than get an education. The last time I was there for about 4 days - I saw 3 cars that happened to. Sorry - but that is ALSO what Trish and her family say too. There are hardworking Indians on the reserve - with thriving businesses - but you have a distorted view.

So is your argument that most american indians cant or wont make anything of their lives? and the few that are actually willing to go to schools with no desks and books from 1948 so they can choose from either being integrated into a society they dont feel apart of or remain in their own tiny universe where a slow unsuccesful life is their most likely future? Im sure your one indian friend is a great representative for how to make something of yourself but when there has been an attitude of no matter what you do youll never make anything of your life its really really tough to break through that psychological sewer that they find themselves in and be a "successful american". in fact it takes generations of a different kind of thinking to get there. and the rest of america isnt really concerned enough to notice theres a problem.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well I just called Trish a half hour ago to find out her opinion and if it has changed. I asked her if she still felt that the Indians on the reservation were just as lazy as they were before - she said "Oh yes! But not as bad as it had been." She went on to say that many Indians who left the reservation to get an education and get jobs off the reservation have been coming back. So they have had an influx of professionals coming in.

theyll need more then that. especially in canada where on some reservations the suicide rate is about three times higher then the elemantary school graduation rate. and you dont kill yourself because you are lazy. we have a mountain to climb.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex

So is your argument that most american indians cant or wont make anything of their lives? and the few that are actually willing to go to schools with no desks and books from 1948 so they can choose from either being integrated into a society they dont feel apart of or remain in their own tiny universe where a slow unsuccesful life is their most likely future? Im sure your one indian friend is a great representative for how to make something of yourself but when there has been an attitude of no matter what you do youll never make anything of your life its really really tough to break through that psychological sewer that they find themselves in and be a "successful american". in fact it takes generations of a different kind of thinking to get there. and the rest of america isnt really concerned enough to notice theres a problem.

I don't only know ONE Indian - and since I have actually been to Indian reservation - I'll trust my OWN eyes - before listening to someone I have no idea about. AND believe me - they do NOT have no desks or books from 1948 on Six Nations.

It is true that her grandfather had a hard school life. I've been to his old school - and in the early 1900's they were punished for speaking Mohawk or practicing their ceremonies. But sorry to disappoint you - but that isn't the case anymore.

[b]
theyll need more then that. especially in canada where on some reservations the suicide rate is about three times higher then the elemantary school graduation rate. and you dont kill yourself because you are lazy. we have a mountain to climb.

Well it's amazing - she's never talked about any suicides on the reservation and I've never seen or heard of any when I've been there. You must have some amazing powers to be able to talk so much about it. Have you ever been to a reservation?

[afro-elf]

I have posted my background enough times on the moot and I am too tired to do it now.

But as a minority I tend to agree with Trish and Jeresy Devil.

It is a multi-tiered problem; and it is one blacks can take care of themselves. Blacks keep themselves down these days not DA MAN or the system

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well it's amazing - she's never talked about any suicides on the reservation and I've never seen or heard of any when I've been there. You must have some amazing powers to be able to talk so much about it.

yes its called education. and also you arent the only one to have native american (and native canadian) friends. I just dont choose to wave it around like a flag because ive got enough facts on my own about this. im shocked your friend isnt aware that theres a suicide problem among the native american population on reservations both here and in canada. theres a gentleman by the name of Rick Thomas who is a substance abuse counselor for the Santee Sioux Tribe of Nebraska. He did a study based on national suicide statistics on ALL reservations in the lower 48 and alaska. not just ONE.... And the numbers they came up with are staggering. Something like 73% of incarerated indian youth suffer from depression. 73%! starting at about age 9 disillusionment with their surroundings and their future prospects intensifies, leading to what they call "psychological suicide". "Psychological suicide is how we destroy ourselves with our minds," he said. And if chronic depression is allowed to persist it can lead to physical suicide. The actual suicide rate among American Indian youths was nearly triple the rate of other groups from 1989 to 1991. American Indian and Alaska Native suicide rates for ages 15 to 24 was 37.5 per 100,000 versus 13.2 per 100,000 nationally. So there you have it.

Have you ever been to a reservation?

Yes

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
yes its called education. and also you arent the only one to have native american (and native canadian) friends. I just dont choose to wave it around like a flag because ive got enough facts on my own about this.

I'm not waving it around like a flag - I'm stating why I feel this way. It's pertinent to the discussion.

im shocked your friend isnt aware that theres a suicide problem among the native american population on reservations both here and in canada. theres a gentleman by the name of Rick Thomas who is a substance abuse counselor for the Santee Sioux Tribe of Nebraska. He did a study based on national suicide statistics on ALL reservations in the lower 48 and alaska. not just ONE.... And the numbers they came up with are staggering. Something like 73% of incarerated indian youth suffer from depression. 73%! starting at about age 9 disillusionment with their surroundings and their future prospects intensifies, leading to what they call "psychological suicide". "Psychological suicide is how we destroy ourselves with our minds," he said. And if chronic depression is allowed to persist it can lead to physical suicide. The actual suicide rate among American Indian youths was nearly triple the rate of other groups from 1989 to 1991. American Indian and Alaska Native suicide rates for ages 15 to 24 was 37.5 per 100,000 versus 13.2 per 100,000 nationally. So there you have it.

there is a huge problem on the reserves in regards to crime, drugs and alcohol. Trish just doesn't, nor does her family, attribute it to lack of oppurtunities as much as lack of motivation. Her cousin has been arrested and was involved with drugs and alcohol really badly, yet he comes from a really good family. He HAD the opportunity to make somethign of his life - just like his cousin (who he grew up with) had the same opportunies and became a police officer. They decided to take to different roads and too many people there take the easy way.

To tell you the truth I saw far more poverty when I was in West Virginia going to school than I have ever seen on the Indian Reserve (at least Six Nations). One of my close friends - she was from West Virginia and we went over her house. It was in a holler and I am sorry to say - it looked like a fort my father would have made me when I was little. It had an addition on it that was made out of various sized pieces of plywood, the carpet looked like it had been found at a dump or on the side of the road. But that is where she lived and all of us were in shock, but we had a good time.

Trish's grandfather's house didn't have runnign water. He actually DIDN'T want it. The reserve was going to put it in for free because he had been chief - everyone else had running water - but he didn't want it. So when I used to go up there - we used to use an outhouse, was our hair from water from the well and just sponge bath. Every couple of days we'd go over Trish's cousins to take a shower. After Trish moved in with her grandfather - she finally convinced him to let them put in the running water.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I have posted my background enough times on the moot and I am too tired to do it now.

But as a minority I tend to agree with Trish and Jeresy Devil.

It is a multi-tiered problem; and it is one blacks can take care of themselves. Blacks keep themselves down these days not DA MAN or the system

well thats all well and nice but we were talking about problems on american indian reservations. not on if blacks are lazy and the cause of all their own problems or not. so hey maybe another thread? although Im sure its been done before.

[afro-elf]

The psychology "suicide rate" I would be a tad leery of. They are incarerated. It would not breed a joyous feeling. Also, it does not compared THAT rate with non natives. I am not saying it is not true just that depression would SEEM to be high for anyone in that situation. So it may not be soley a native problem.

The actual suicide rate among American Indian youths was nearly triple the rate of other groups from 1989 to 1991. American Indian and Alaska Native suicide rates for ages 15 to 24 was 37.5 per 100,000 versus 13.2 per 100,000 nationally. So there you have it

from an epidemiological POV, were there any reasons giving way the 89-91 years were higher?

Anyway, the victim mentality keeps people down.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well thats all well and nice but we were talking about problems on american indian reservations. not on if blacks are lazy and the cause of all their own problems or not. so hey maybe another thread? although Im sure its been done before.

Excuse me - but talking about Indians is what's off topic on this thread. This thread started off talking about Martin Luther King Day.

[Firekitten2006]

wow we have quite a debate going on here! Let me get my 2 cents in really quick ok? lol

I have never been to a reservation. My little sisters were told that there werent any reservations left. So thats an example of what the text books and government would like the children to believe. Someone said that we were taught about the Trail of Tears. Let me know when thats going to happen. Everything I learned about it I had to do so from the few books they had about it. And even then it was only a couple of sentences.

I personally dont think race has anything to do with whether or not people are driven to make their lives better. I think if a person is raised with the idea that they cant do anything to better their lives, and there is no hope in the world they will believe it. Race doesnt come into it. Its all a mentality. I read an article that said they had two groups of Asian women. One group was told that because they're women they wont be able to pass the math test they were given. The other was told that because they are Asian they will be able to pass the math test. Guess which group passed the test?

I know the Cherokee nation here works very hard to get their people in jobs to pay for their families. You should see how much they get paid.

Thats why I dislike the whole slave reparations movement: people should stop using the past as an excuse for their problems, and try to fix them themselves.

I completely agree. I didnt own any slaves. I didnt prevent any African Americans from going to my school. Why should I have to pay for it?

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
well thats all well and nice but we were talking about problems on american indian reservations. not on if blacks are lazy and the cause of all their own problems or not. so hey maybe another thread? although Im sure its been done before.

The THREAD is about MLK day) who just happens to be black) and Black history

So to quote you

so hey maybe another thread?

No reason to be prickly