03-18-2002, 06:01 PM | #21 | |||
Elf Lord
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"I know there is a lot of interesting info in the additional collections of Tolkien's writings, but I look rather askance at them because he didn't integrate that material into his published writings (Silmarillion aside)." J. R. R. didn't or Christopher? If you mean the former, what material are you referring to? Where in The Hobbit, The Book of Lost Tales, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, The Road Goes Ever On or the Lord of the Rings should Tolkien have put his Glorfindel essay? Where should he have said that the "two" were one and the same? I don't understand your logic. Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time, but that's no reason to "look askance" at them. Quote:
There is nothing in The Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings (the latter here being much more weighty than the former) that would suggest there were two different Glorfindels. There are two texts that shed light on the subject, they are found in the Peoples of Middle-earth, and both say that they were the same Glorfindel. Quote:
The Silmarillion is nice to read, but I think most take it way too seriously. When you really get into studying the texts you'll find that the more you know -- the less you know. "Canon" is not an easy thing to find.
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03-18-2002, 09:21 PM | #22 |
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"Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time, but that's no reason to "look askance" at them."
But, nolendil, by "look askance" I meant "Nothing in the Peoples of Middle-earth, in my opinion, should hold as much authority as anything published during Tolkien's life time", just in shorthand. This is exactly what I am getting at, that the works published in his lifetime take precedence. Absolutely I do not mean his works not published post-mortem are garbage; quite the opposite. They are still Tolkien, but just don't hold the same authority. I can see now that it has been a semantic difference, which is understandable. I agree. But again, I consider JRR's revision process when it came to the material HE had published, and it is very likely that the essay you indicate is clarifying may very well have been discarded when he faced having it in print. He may not have, who actually knows. all I am saying is the stuff he edited and re-eidted has to be more clearly his real intent, not the stuff in notebooks or piles of papers on his desk, truly fascinating as those materials may be. Yes. A closer look at the whole of HoME would lend better light to the issue, but sorry, it is so dry and so disjointed and so esoteric I have a real problem reading it in depth. I imagine a lot of others would find the same thing. And, I just can't get over the fact that it just wasn't put through the editing/re-editing process by JRR himself and am not totally sure he himself would call it as authoratative. Lemme see if I've sown the seeds for another semantic miscommunication. Good post, Nolendil. You ain't a mod for nothing.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
03-18-2002, 09:51 PM | #23 | |||
Elf Lord
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04-09-2002, 04:29 PM | #24 |
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If Glorfindel was reincarnated, then it gives us an interesting parallel between him and Gandalf. They both died(falling off an abyss/mountain) saving their friends from a Balrog and they both came back a bit later to help in the fight again. Just as a question, has ANYONE defeated a Balrog without dying?
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04-09-2002, 11:26 PM | #25 |
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"The History of Middle-earth is the history of Tolkien's writings about Middle-earth, not about the world itself."
Actually this really clears up a real misunderstanding of HoME fo me. I took it literally as a history of Middle Earth and not of the writings. Good call.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
04-10-2002, 01:13 AM | #26 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks bropous.
Wulazg, not that we have heard about. Fëanor, Fingon, Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gandalf, all fought Balrogs, all died. Of course many others were killed by Balrogs, but these are the people could slew some themselves (except for Fingon whose head was cloven by Gothmog's black axe long before the latter was slain in Gondolin).
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04-19-2002, 04:34 PM | #27 |
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There's an interesting passage in LoR... "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes:the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?' 'Yes, you sas him for a moment as he is upon the other side, one of the mighty of the Firstbor. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes..." So Glorfindel had to have at least been to the Blessed Realm, and that wouldn't have happened if he was an elf other than the original Glorfindel, since the only Eldar from the Blessed Realm were from Gondolin at that point in time. Right? |
04-20-2002, 11:46 PM | #28 |
Elf Lord
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There could have been another Glorfindel that never went to Middle-earth before the Third Age in exile. Except that Tolkien expressly stated it had to be the same Glorfindel because no Elf ever bore the same name of a past Elf of historical importance. It was the same Elf.
Anyway, Glorfindel in the Third Age was more powerful than Glorfindel of the First, because he had returned to live in Valinor among the unrebellious High Elves and Holy Ones, regaining the innocence of the Eldar.
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04-21-2002, 12:40 PM | #29 | |
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04-21-2002, 01:04 PM | #30 |
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Tolkien said two things: one was that "Glorfindel" was too striking a name to be reused (it is not Quenya and is hardly Sindarin), and also that no Elf bore the same name of another Elf of importance anyway. Both are said in the same essay in Peoples of Middle-earth.
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05-11-2002, 03:01 PM | #31 |
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Why is it that the only people who fought Balrogs and got resurrected were the ones whose names started with the letter G?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who got confused by Glorfindel's resurection, for a while my friends and I thought that it was a case of spontaneous reincarnation.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
05-11-2002, 10:47 PM | #32 | |
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05-11-2002, 11:39 PM | #33 |
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simply he came back to post on the moot
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
05-12-2002, 11:55 AM | #34 |
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I think I'm pretty much convinced at this point that Glorfindel who rode Asfaloth is the same one who slew the Balrog. I think there has been plenty of back-and-forth on this issue and it seems to me the weight of evidence is on the side of the "single Glorfindel" theory.
So, the score so far, going into the second half: Balrogs gots wings. Glorfindel was a single Elf. Sauron was a meanie. Resume play.
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"...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160. |
05-12-2002, 01:08 PM | #35 |
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nice to see ya again if only for a while
of course you can't forget the overwhelming evidence that i was arwen's nubian paramour. Yes aragorn was a cuckold husband
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
03-09-2003, 05:56 AM | #36 |
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He came back for the...
Whats some¡¡good one-line here?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
03-09-2003, 09:22 AM | #37 | |
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03-10-2003, 03:09 AM | #38 |
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Finwë??
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03-10-2003, 01:26 PM | #39 | |
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-11-2003, 01:25 PM | #40 |
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When Finwe died he was alowed to meet Miriel in Mandos halls. And when he told her what had befallen after her refusal of reincarnation, she repented. And thinking longer over it she felt the call of her body and disiered for the life of an incarnated. But Mandos was stern and reminded her of Indis how was still alive and the wife of Finwe even so he was dead. But Finwe offered to stay in Mandos for ever, so that Miriel could live again. To that Mandos agreed, thinking it could be a way healing. So Miriel went forth from Mandos, and Finwe stayed there for ever.
All this can be found in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 10:Morgoth's Ring. Respectfully Findegil |
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