Why did Bilbo age so quickly, yet Gollum remained youthful? - Page 2

Lizra · 01-10-2003, 10:47 AM

Could be!

***Earniel*** · 01-11-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Yup, you are right, I just checked, it certainly doesn't say in the FOTR that Smeagol was evil before seeing the ring. I somehow got it into my head he was evil before the ring was found. Must be those stupid fangirl threads.

Well you're not alone. I was thinking along the same lines. Well not truly evil but something more like inclined to evil when given the chance. I don't think I've got that from fangirl threads. So where DID I get it? 's probably my imagination.

BeardofPants · 01-11-2003, 05:03 PM

I seem to remember that he got kicked out by his guardian for being something equivalent to a peeping tom? (sneaking, stealing, all that sort of stuff.) Am I just being delusional, here?

Dúnedain · 01-11-2003, 05:07 PM

I never heard of that, I remember reading that Smeagol was very well liked by everyone and was his grandmother's favorite. However, BoP, I do remember that after he had the ring and was back in his village he was using it to spy on people, such as to see what they were talking about or if they were talking about him. Eventually the town caught on and were getting mad at this behaviour and they asked him to leave, even his grandmother. That is probably what you are thinking about....

BeardofPants · 01-11-2003, 05:11 PM

Oh. Yeah, come to think of it, you may be right there... Which puts an entirely different light on Gollum. It makes it possible that he could have been redeemed.

Dúnedain · 01-11-2003, 05:29 PM

You can find all the info for Smeagol/Gollum on pages 51-57 in FotR, here are some passages:

"There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Smeagol. He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mouns; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leaves on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downward."

"No one ever found out what had become of Deagol; he was murdered far from home, and his body was cunningly hidden. But Smeagol returned alone; and he found that none of his family could see him, when he was wearing the ring. He was very pleased with his discovery and he concealed it; and he used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature. It is not to be wondered at that he became very unpopular and was shunned (when visible) by all his relations. They kicked him, and he bit their feet. He took to thieving, and going about muttering to himself, and gurgling in his throat. So they called him Gollum, and cursed him, and told him to go far away; and his grandmother, desiring peace, expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole."

entss89 · 01-11-2003, 08:02 PM

i dont believe smeagol is still young but i think he still has his spirit!

cassiopeia · 01-12-2003, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
Well you're not alone. I was thinking along the same lines. Well not truly evil but something more like inclined to evil when given the chance. I don't think I've got that from fangirl threads. So where DID I get it? 's probably my imagination.

I'm glad I'm not crazy.

I perhaps got confused by the second paragraph Dunedain posted. But I was fairly sure. Maybe it's in the Hobbit. I'll post a quote if I find something.

Edit: I didn't find anything in The Hobbit, so I must be confused.

Dúnedain · 01-12-2003, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I'm glad I'm not crazy. I perhaps got confused by the second paragraph Dunedain posted. But I was fairly sure. Maybe it's in the Hobbit. I'll post a quote if I find something.

Edit: I didn't find anything in The Hobbit, so I must be confused.

This is probably what you are talking about, this is from a few paragraphs above what I quoted earlier in FotR:

"And behold! when he washed the mud away, there in his hand lay a beautiful golden ring; and it shone and glittered in the sun, so that his heart was glad. But Smeagol had been watching him from behind the tree, and as Deagol gloated over the ring, Smeagol came softly up behind.
'Give us that, Deagol, my love,' said Smeagol, over his friend's shoulder.
'Why?' said Deagol
'Because it's my birthday, my love, and I wants it,' said Smeagol.
'I don't care,' said Deagol. 'I have given you a present already, more than I could afford. I found this, and I'm going to keep it.'
'Oh, are you indeed, my love,' said Smeagol; and he caught Deagol by the throat and strangled him, because the gold looked so bright and beautiful. Then he put the ring on his finger.'"

Now, this I think is the most important part of that passage, "he caught Deagol by the throat and strangled him, because the gold looked so bright and beautiful." To me, that line is telling me the ring drew him in and made him kill his best friend....

***azalea*** · 01-12-2003, 02:59 PM

And it was debated in another thread about whether or not the corruption was immediate, or whether Smeagol had a "predisposition" to evil, since Bilbo didn't become "evil", even after years of possessing the Ring. That may be where some people got the idea that Smeagol was evil beforehand. I tried to find that thread, but couldn't, so it must have been debated within a thread about something else (maybe a "ring" thread).

1. Smeagol seems to be immediately corrupted to the greatest extent, even though the Dark Lord is more latent than he'll be by the time Bilbo finds it.
2. Bilbo is immediately corrupted in that he hides the ring and lies about it (and also keeps it although he knows in his heart that it belonged to Gollum). But I think we can agree that murder of a loved one is more evil than hiding/ lying about a possession. A "severe corruption" scenario probably would have seen Bilbo killing Gollum (assuming that Bilbo and Gollum have the same amount of natural "goodness").
3. This is a very important issue because if indeed the amount of basic goodness is a factor in the immediate "corruptability" of a being (IMO, amount of native power is another), that would help us to understand Frodo's level of corruption at whatever given point in his journey. (And hence would strenthen my case for his pure motives in volunteering to take the ring to Mordor -- see the Why did Frodo Volunteer to Take the Ring? thread

j/k)

FattyBulger · 01-13-2003, 10:54 PM

I know that gollum wasn't ALWAYS wearing the ring but he wore it much more than Bilbo did.

eg: He lived off fish and stray goblins, the goblins were armed and bigger than him, the only way he could get the chance to eat them would be if he was wearing the ring. Also, to manage to stay alive in the pool with gollum, the fish would have to be very quick and slippery, gollum might wear the ring when catching them.

cassiopeia · 03-04-2003, 09:05 PM

I have just been reading the Letters of Tolkien and I came across this comment (#181):

Quote:

But he [Gollum] would never had to endure it [the ring] if he had not become a mean sort of thief before it crossed his path.

So I am not crazy after all (I don't think!): Gollum was 'mean' before he found the ring. What do you think of this comment?

olsonm · 03-04-2003, 09:24 PM

I think it means that he wouldn't have stolen it from Deagol if he hadn't already been mean. I wonder how Deagol would have fared as a Bearer?

Elvedans · 03-06-2003, 05:25 PM

Thinking of that makes me wonder what sort of a people the riverfolk were. Were they all given to mean, selfish deeds as was Smeagol, or was he just a "bad egg"?

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-06-2003, 06:37 PM

In Tolkien's letters, he said that both Deagol and Smeagol were 'mean'; but I doubt that that would apply to all river-folk.

Lizra · 03-06-2003, 08:53 PM

But Cassiopeia just said there was a letter that said he was a mean sort, before the ring crossed his path.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-06-2003, 11:00 PM

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure what the confusion is about?

Lizra · 03-06-2003, 11:16 PM

I don't think I did either!

I thought you said they wern't mean, I guess! Nevermind!

cassiopeia · 03-07-2003, 12:47 AM

I think this thread is making everybody go crazy!

Where were you when I first posted here Gwaimir?

I had read the letters before, so that's where I got the idea Smeagol was mean before finding the ring.
Anyway, back OT, I'll stick with my first post.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-07-2003, 01:00 AM

If you mean Entmoot, then probably it would be in Portugal, though maybe in KC. If you mean this thread, then I was probably:

1) Elsewhere on Entmoot
2) On some other forum
3) Fidgetting with my LOTR RPG

01-10-2003, 10:47 AM	#21
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	Could be! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

01-11-2003, 05:03 PM	#23
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I seem to remember that he got kicked out by his guardian for being something equivalent to a peeping tom? (sneaking, stealing, all that sort of stuff.) Am I just being delusional, here? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-11-2003, 05:07 PM	#24
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I never heard of that, I remember reading that Smeagol was very well liked by everyone and was his grandmother's favorite. However, BoP, I do remember that after he had the ring and was back in his village he was using it to spy on people, such as to see what they were talking about or if they were talking about him. Eventually the town caught on and were getting mad at this behaviour and they asked him to leave, even his grandmother. That is probably what you are thinking about.... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-11-2003, 05:11 PM	#25
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Oh. Yeah, come to think of it, you may be right there... Which puts an entirely different light on Gollum. It makes it possible that he could have been redeemed. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

01-11-2003, 05:29 PM	#26
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	You can find all the info for Smeagol/Gollum on pages 51-57 in FotR, here are some passages: "There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Smeagol. He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mouns; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leaves on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downward." "No one ever found out what had become of Deagol; he was murdered far from home, and his body was cunningly hidden. But Smeagol returned alone; and he found that none of his family could see him, when he was wearing the ring. He was very pleased with his discovery and he concealed it; and he used it to find out secrets, and he put his knowledge to crooked and malicious uses. He became sharp-eyed and keen-eared for all that was hurtful. The ring had given him power according to his stature. It is not to be wondered at that he became very unpopular and was shunned (when visible) by all his relations. They kicked him, and he bit their feet. He took to thieving, and going about muttering to himself, and gurgling in his throat. So they called him Gollum, and cursed him, and told him to go far away; and his grandmother, desiring peace, expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole." __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

01-11-2003, 08:02 PM	#27
entss89 lord of the ents Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: nc Posts: 539	i dont believe smeagol is still young but i think he still has his spirit! __________________ ( tune: im a little teapot) im a little hobbit short and stout here is my ring evil without a doubt when you get me hipped up here me shout get me to mordo as quick as you can.. if you like that song then you should visit www.lordoftherings.net! the ents are coming the ents are coming watch out tower of orthanc for your dark walls shall fall! sauroman, sauroman your name is not the white! for now you are sauroman of many colors! a best frind does not stab u in the back................... they stab u in the front.

01-12-2003, 02:59 PM	#30
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	And it was debated in another thread about whether or not the corruption was immediate, or whether Smeagol had a "predisposition" to evil, since Bilbo didn't become "evil", even after years of possessing the Ring. That may be where some people got the idea that Smeagol was evil beforehand. I tried to find that thread, but couldn't, so it must have been debated within a thread about something else (maybe a "ring" thread). 1. Smeagol seems to be immediately corrupted to the greatest extent, even though the Dark Lord is more latent than he'll be by the time Bilbo finds it. 2. Bilbo is immediately corrupted in that he hides the ring and lies about it (and also keeps it although he knows in his heart that it belonged to Gollum). But I think we can agree that murder of a loved one is more evil than hiding/ lying about a possession. A "severe corruption" scenario probably would have seen Bilbo killing Gollum (assuming that Bilbo and Gollum have the same amount of natural "goodness"). 3. This is a very important issue because if indeed the amount of basic goodness is a factor in the immediate "corruptability" of a being (IMO, amount of native power is another), that would help us to understand Frodo's level of corruption at whatever given point in his journey. (And hence would strenthen my case for his pure motives in volunteering to take the ring to Mordor -- see the Why did Frodo Volunteer to Take the Ring? thread j/k)

01-13-2003, 10:54 PM	#31
FattyBulger Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 22	I know that gollum wasn't ALWAYS wearing the ring but he wore it much more than Bilbo did. eg: He lived off fish and stray goblins, the goblins were armed and bigger than him, the only way he could get the chance to eat them would be if he was wearing the ring. Also, to manage to stay alive in the pool with gollum, the fish would have to be very quick and slippery, gollum might wear the ring when catching them. __________________ Georgia Productions

03-04-2003, 09:24 PM	#33
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	I think it means that he wouldn't have stolen it from Deagol if he hadn't already been mean. I wonder how Deagol would have fared as a Bearer? __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

03-06-2003, 05:25 PM	#34
Elvedans Diamond Of The Night Sky Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Old London Town (Well somewhere near there) Posts: 366	Thinking of that makes me wonder what sort of a people the riverfolk were. Were they all given to mean, selfish deeds as was Smeagol, or was he just a "bad egg"? __________________ I see a little silhouetto of a man. Scaramouche scaramouche will you do the fandango? Thunderbolts and Lightning, very very frightening me!

03-06-2003, 06:37 PM	#35
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	In Tolkien's letters, he said that both Deagol and Smeagol were 'mean'; but I doubt that that would apply to all river-folk. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-06-2003, 08:53 PM	#36
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	But Cassiopeia just said there was a letter that said he was a mean sort, before the ring crossed his path. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-06-2003, 11:00 PM	#37
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure what the confusion is about? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-06-2003, 11:16 PM	#38
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	I don't think I did either! I thought you said they wern't mean, I guess! Nevermind! __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats!

03-07-2003, 12:47 AM	#39
cassiopeia Viggoholic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,749	I think this thread is making everybody go crazy! Where were you when I first posted here Gwaimir? I had read the letters before, so that's where I got the idea Smeagol was mean before finding the ring. Anyway, back OT, I'll stick with my first post. __________________ Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try.

03-07-2003, 01:00 AM	#40
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	If you mean Entmoot, then probably it would be in Portugal, though maybe in KC. If you mean this thread, then I was probably: 1) Elsewhere on Entmoot 2) On some other forum 3) Fidgetting with my LOTR RPG __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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