04-11-2004, 04:15 PM | #21 | ||
Elf Lord
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Therefore, because I was too afraid to reach out to him, he reached out to me. I didn't have faith in him, sufficient for the meeting. He worked with me anyway. He came and spoke to me, and I learned that he exists. Since then, I have had to walk in faith, trusting in God to look after me, to have a plan for all the events in my life, etc. This walking in faith for me is the real difficulty. It is dotted with miraculous incidents, witnessing prayers answered and God incessantly faithful. Isn't it crazy how faithless we humans can be? |
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04-11-2004, 06:50 PM | #22 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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I agree, it is possible, but I'm not going to throw all my faith into it and make a special trip down to be 'touched'. If it is for real, then it's great what he's doing for people, if not then... well... he'll get his 'reward' sooner or later . |
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04-11-2004, 09:10 PM | #23 |
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It is possible...miracles, that is. For example: one night (a long time ago) at a church dinner, my dad was asked to pray for a fellow member who was going through cancer surgery the next day. They are on the operating table (that next day), opened up for surgery, and the cancer is completely gone! How do you explain that? And they most definitely had had cancer prior to that surgery.
As for the faith healers on tv? I too am a great skeptic. My high school church history teacher tried one of these tv faith healers, where you put your hands on the tv, and (surprise!) it didn't work at all. As a Christian, I don't believe God acts through his disciples now in the same way he did 2,000 years ago.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
04-11-2004, 09:37 PM | #24 | |||
Elf Lord
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a) because you have not had the right experiences from God. Pray for them. or b) because you have not looked at the right material, or deeply into many of the current Christian ministries. There are books like "Open Doors", and "The Cross and the Switchblade", and "Like a Mighty Wind", that might cause you to feel differently. |
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04-11-2004, 09:51 PM | #25 | |
Elf Lord
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I know that before I was baptized by the Holy Spirit I only had very few miraculous experiences. There were two which I was so young during that I don't remember them, which were powerful. I only know about them because my parents told me about them. One was when I was climbing around on an active electric fence, and was not harmed. My parents saw me, panicked, and grabbed me off. My grandfather was puzzled, because the fence was supposed to be electric. So he touched it and received a huge electric shock. The other experience was when I was very little, and my mother was reading the Bible to me. Suddenly I pointed, and said that there was an angel standing by the wardrobe. I was very young, and I don't believe I lied. Of course, I don't know that, but I know that only once in my entire life since then have I really lied, and I wouldn't lie about something like that. After those experiences, I only had a few which I can still remember (before the Baptism of the Holy Spirit), and those were not nearly so powerful. After that came the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Since the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, I began to put together a "Spiritual Relationship" document, in which I chronicled my encounters with the Lord. I very quickly stopped mentioning my answered prayers, because they were far too numerous. That document has been going on for . . . probably two or three years now, and is well over three hundred pages long, full of various spiritual experiences. I've put together a separate one which is about thirty pages long, all including spiritual experiences regarding something else. So these spiritual experiences do exist. These experiences haven't usually been as strong as the two ones that I mentioned, which I was too young to remember. I have had at least one that is that strong- at least that strong, which I do remember. Simply because one hasn't had all of these experiences yet doesn't mean that they don't exist. Simply because they seem so foreign to common experience without them doesn't mean that they don't exist. I personally think it's difficult to lump all television evangelists into one boat. I know quite a few Christians here that do not care much for their ministries, but then there are others like my grandmother who see some of them as great men with callings from God. It doesn't seem at all impossible that God (remember that he is God ) can use the TV . |
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04-11-2004, 10:02 PM | #26 |
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Sminty - you did it again! You start so many really good threads - and I'm always making mental notes to address the questions you raise - but too rarely get to it (usually it's something really thought-provoking and I try to wait until I think I'd have time to do justice to an answer - and that much time rarely comes at once).
I agree with what Tessar said though. I'm a Christian, and I DO believe in healing... but I don't think God does it everytime we ask - or in all circumstances. In other words, all the ingredients of faith, etc may be there, but, in His Wisdom, God still has the option to say 'yes' or 'no' (ED: God is not our waiter... we're His servants). I believe I've witnessed healings in some few cases... and have heard numerous first-hand accounts. (ED: I also joined in intense prayer for the healing of a friend with terminal illness - and he was not healed) However, I also get very sceptical of 'canned, pre-packaged, made-for-TV' type healing services. Perhaps God IS at work there and they're totally on the up-and-up, but I tend to doubt it.
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 04-11-2004 at 10:09 PM. |
04-11-2004, 11:29 PM | #27 | |
The Dude
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all these healers are are some dodgy businessmen who tap into a market (ohhh lets nab the christians today by making them believe we are Jesus Reborn!) and try and exploit people into feeding there sorry existence. What about Rasputin, nobody could explain his 'healing powers' could they?, he should've self-stylized himself as some modern Jesus, who wouldnt follow Rasputin
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04-11-2004, 11:50 PM | #28 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Umm...geez Millane, if you're going to post in here, at least dont be sacriligious.
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04-12-2004, 12:04 AM | #29 | |
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04-12-2004, 12:14 AM | #30 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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fine with me...
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04-12-2004, 02:50 AM | #31 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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But Lief if God healed us EVERY time we just asked for it, there would be no pain and suffering to offer up, and no benefit to having pain in the first place.
It's WONDERFUL every time some one is healed. My grandpa is dieing of Bone Cancer right now and I know I'd like him to be healed, but God hasn't healed him despite prayer, offering masses, or anything else. There HAS to be a benefit to suffering, although of course that's very easy for me to say, now that I'm in good health. Lemme clear something up, would you be Roman Catholic, like myself, or Protestant Lief? Just trying to figure out where, or even if, our ideas might differ slightly. Like Valandil said, I DO believe in miracles, but I tend to be more skeptical about the 'tv-dinner' healers. And as for God doing strange things to cause the healing, it's a fact that he could've done it easily enough by just LOOKING at the people. He did it with the gestures so that people would have a sign. I don't think you need to be conked on the head to receive the grace of God. If you need a sign, then make the Cross on their forehead. The 'hitting' thing sounds very showy to me, and designed for a TV audience. |
04-12-2004, 02:55 AM | #32 | |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
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And for all we know, there WERE people who got healed and never said a word. Remember, if they didn't tell anyone, how are we to know about it? We'd only hear about the people who weren't able to keep quiet. And of course Jesus was a 'smart-cookie', he was God you know . |
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04-12-2004, 03:01 AM | #33 | |
the Shrike
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04-12-2004, 07:42 AM | #34 |
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Ernest Angley! What a load of manure! Stick him in with Jim and Tammie Faye Baker, at "The Crystal Palace". I don't believe in miracles, I don't believe in faith healing. I DO believe some people will go to great lengths to convince themselves (and others) of something, because that is what they WANT to believe. Ernest Angley is just plain funny. HEAL!!! (Your toupee! )
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 04-12-2004 at 07:44 AM. |
04-12-2004, 09:27 AM | #35 | |
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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04-12-2004, 09:51 AM | #36 | |
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Hmm...*begins to ponder deep thougths*
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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04-12-2004, 11:05 AM | #37 |
Elf Lord
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When soccer superstar David Beckham injured his ankle before the World Cup Tournament, and it looked like he might not be recovered in time to play for England, one of the British tabloids printed a full page picture of his foot on their front page, asking all their readers to put their hands on the picture and pray for a miracle.
When asked about the theological viewpoint on this, a bishop for the Church of England replied "Well, I suppose we can thank the Good Lord that it wasn't a groin injury"
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04-12-2004, 11:56 AM | #38 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Oh Geez! That's rich!
I know a lady who carted her traumatic brain injured son down to Indpls to see Benny Hinn a few years back. Nothing happened...of course.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 04-12-2004 at 11:58 AM. |
04-12-2004, 01:08 PM | #39 |
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The power of human denial is immense. Heard a story a few weeks ago about this deaf woman who went down to somewhere in Brazil with a couple dozen americans looking to get cured by a guy in the jungle there who had a global reputation for curing untreatable conditions. They all went through a long process of weird rituals and were given mysterious medications (which were all the same no matter if you were deaf or were paralyzed or had brain cancer). Nobody got healed over the few weeks they were there (although they had a great time apparently) but all but ONE of them went home thinking well itll kick in soon or later. Even after nothing had happened for a year many of them went back thinking they needed to continue the process for it to work.
So the fact is that people in very dire end of the road health situations will resort to just about any straw to clutch to in the hopes of a miracle happening. And it will all make perfect sense to them. The power of the human mind to rationalize things when it comes to our very survival is enormous and some people take advantage of that fact to make themselves rich.
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04-12-2004, 01:52 PM | #40 | |
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I feel sorry for the people thinking that they can get a miracle in this way.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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