I'm writing an essay on relativism in LOTR

[Lightice]

Well really, what I'm going to get at especially is the question: "Do absolute, pure good and evil actually exist in LOTR?"

And I'm going to try to justify the answer "no". However, I need to be fully aware of both sides of the issue to argue anything in the first place.

Very true. Morgoth first wanted simply became different than his brothers and sisters while travelling in Darkness searching for Light, but as he never found it, he became bitter, and in the end corrupt. Corruption started from him, but he wasn't the corruption. And corruption is different from evil. Morgoth and those who followed him fell in corruption and darkness and in the end destruction. I however wouldn't call that "evil". As for the "good" guys, Eru wanted to keep in control of everything. It was rather like "Big Brother is watching" kind of thing, really. I wouldn't thus say, that Eru was 100% good, nor were Valar.
So nothing was pure. Only shades of gray.

[Blackheart]

Bah- youse is going around it da wrong way...

Arda is a different metaphysical realm than reality.

All you need do is define Eru as "absolute good".

Once you have arbitrarily done that, you can define anything in direct opposition to Eru as "absolute evil".

You can define Eru as such, because it IS a different metaphysical realm.

[Wulažg]

That's the really cheap way to do it. It's fine, jsut really cheap. If you do decide to do that, you will need to spend a LOT of time explaining Eru then, his motivations, his 'personality'

[Blackheart]

Right after someone explains 'ow you can have moral relativity in a cosmos with a defined creator.

Relativism denies the existence of absolute good and evil. In a universe with a definate creator, the existence of absolute good is a given, though it may not be what you might define as "Good".

[Lightice]

So if Eru would massacre entire elf race becouse of what Fëanor did, would he still be ultimate Good? Ofcourse he didn't, but in different universe he could had.
. I go even farther than relativism. I say, that Good and Evil aren't subjective. They're outright nonexistant. They're just things humans made up to feel the universe a little bit more organised. Ofcourse, in reality universe is place of constant chaos. Good and Evil have no place in there, where planets collide, galaxies crash and millions of assumed civilisations die every day.

[TinuvielChild]

i thought it was Aleister Crowley?

whooo...this is deep people, i'm over my head. *slowly backing out of this thread that she naively wandered into*

enjoy your discussions people, i probably would if i could comprehend more than 2/3 of it! oh, and praps Tom Shippey's book "J.R.R. Tolkien, Author of the Century" can help.

[Blackheart]

I'm afraid you are mixing up your universes there.

Arda is a tad different from this one.

You can go ahead and say things like good and evil are just human constructs in this reality.

However, the same cannot be said about Arda, since it's recorded that Eru created everything, including the metaphysical system. Even down to constructs like time, and death.

It's not that difficult a concept, if you want a difficult concept, tell me if/why free will exists in Arda.

Well it has to, since Melkor rebeled. So why did Eru create creatures with free will if he knew it was going to lead to rebellion and thus "evil"?

Assuming he's also omniscient... I think he has been described in general terms thereof.

[Wulažg]

Because there can be no good without evil, or at least it is very hard to have good as a concept with nothing to compare it to, and so there must be some evil and imperfection in the world.

[Blackheart]

Ahhh- but that's the crux of the problem.

If Eru designed his unverse to include freewill, and therefore evil as a necessary componant for expression of free will, and to display a contrast to good, then evil is also his creation.

It's the old evil is an illusion argument, which is my personal opinion. If it all reflecs to his greater glory, then 'ow can it be evil?

So I insist that you forthwith stop your persecution of orcs, as they are obviously carrying out Eru's will, and you are interfering with such, and are therefore evil! Evil I tell you!

[Ñólendil]

If Eru designed his unverse to include freewill, and therefore evil as a necessary componant for expression of free will,

But evil was not designed by Eru as a necessary componant for expression of free will. Evil was first conceived of by Melkor (who was not originally evil), in his time away from the One. It's the free-will bit that explains why Eru would prevent Himself from forcing evil not to exist. Instead He created Themes to counteract it and is always at work against it.

[AreteLaugh]

Would the story of Ea had made any sense to us if discord had not arose? And even if it was comprehensible would it have been interesting? We wonders... We wonders... Melkor, evil or not, was certainly critical to the story.

Just because the Vala don't record whether Eru had peers doesn't mean that he didn't have any. Perhaps at the end of days everybody gets to meet Eru's mom and dad?

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Ñólendil


But evil was not designed by Eru as a necessary componant for expression of free will. Evil was first conceived of by Melkor (who was not originally evil), in his time away from the One. It's the free-will bit that explains why Eru would prevent Himself from forcing evil not to exist. Instead He created Themes to counteract it and is always at work against it.

If you define free will as the ability to choose one's own actions and destiny, irregardless of the will of one's creator, and you furthermore define following the will of one's creator as "good", then yes, evil IS a necessary componant of free will.

Melkor did not concieve evil in the void. He had an original thought. The very first original thought that ever existed probably. The fact that it contradicted the will of his creator was of a secondary consequence, and dictated by the laws of the universe.

[Wulažg]

See, we all knew that original thought was dangerous. And Blackheart, I never said that I wasn't evil.... although that might mean that I am just intelligent.... and if you aren't evil...

[Wayfarer]

Xandre! What are you doing here?

[Wayfarer]

Xandre! What are you doing here?

[Blackheart]

Hehe. Skulking, and causing trouble

I've been spotted! time to go to plan B!

*Snaga speaks*

Whutz plan B boss?

- You stand here and throw things at them while I sneak up behind them wif a big stick!

[Wayfarer]

In any case, it's a pleasure to see you, my good friend.

No chance of me going soft with the likes of you around... ]: )

[Blackheart]

Ahhh. So m spose to keep dem on dere toes eh?

[Wulažg]

I thought the proper phrase was "hang them by their toes"

[Aragorns Dimple]

Pippin is evil, evil I tell you! Nobody could be that silly in Moria, he must have been an agent of Sauron from the git-go.

I wish Aragorn could have been more corruptable, I would have liked to see him in a triangle with Arwen and Eowyn (woohoo).

That's my silly 2c.