The Nazgûl's Powers

[Attalus]

That would fit in well with the timeline, yes.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Halbarad of the Dunedain

It is my oppinion that on Weathertop there were only 5 wraiths that were being driven back by 4 little Hobbits and a Man. I think their plan was to do what they could, stab Frodo and hope that he would turn in to a wraith quickly.

If you will take in consideration all Ringwraith's actions you would say that their plans was totally different from what you all got used to think.
Very interesting picture is shaping up.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

So why didn't they just kill Frodo and take the Ring? Perhaps being the Ring-bearer gave him some sort of protection; maybe they couldn't actually handle the Ring and needed to take Frodo in wraith-form back to Sauron.

If that is the case then why were all the bolsters, that either Bob or Nob put in the hobbits room as a disguise, destroyed?

[Attalus]

Tolkien says in the Letters that the Nazgul, being completely in Sauron's conrol by his possession of their Rings, would have brought the Ruling Ring back to him; so they could have handled it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet in LOTR it says that perhaps their wish was for Frodo to take it to Sauron as a wraith so he would be humiliated and tortured by Sauron.

[Attalus]

But Sauron's overwhelming desire was for the Ruling Ring, called by Tolkien "the greatest treasure of the Third Age." Surely, with something that important, some obscure desire to torture someone that he didn't even know would become of secondary importance. As related in "The Hunt For the Ring," the Ringwraiths' overwhelming imperative was to get the Ring. When they invaded Crickhollow, they weren't going to stab somebody with a Morgul-knife, nor were they when they set Bill Ferney and the Southron spy to kill them all in their beds. If they could have killed all the party and taken the Ring, they would have. The reason that they did what they did was that it was the only thing they could do. Aragorn did not fear them, and in fact he was able to scatter them. They were trying to pierce Frodo's heart with the Morgul-knife, which would have immediately have turned him into a wraith, which they would have just taken with them, Ring and all, and Aragorn wouldn't have been able to intevene, as he did, decisively. They held on, hoping that the splinter , doubtless somewhat under the W-K's control, would indeed pierce Frodo's heart, but he outlasted it. It was only when the party was about to enter Rivendell, where they knew that Elrond would remove the splinter, that they panicked and were forced into action, and we all know how that turned out.

[Valandil]

Dag-nab it Attalus, I haven't been able to do any significant research yet, and prospects for the near future still look about as bleak.

I peeked at one thing I had been holding onto, but it wasn't as promising for the opposing case as I'd hoped. It was the Steward Boromir, who, while his father (another Denethor) was Steward, was a great warrior, but received a Morgul wound which shortened his life. When I re-read it today though, I wasn't sure it helped my case. Heck - it even said that the Witch-King feared HIM! If you want to check that out, it's in the Appendix A account of Gondor - Boromir was the father of Cirion, so it's just before the arrival of the Eotheod... 2400's of the Third Age.

I guess my thinking had been that JRRT was a little inconsistent... that maybe his own concept of just how powerful the nazgul were was evolving both while he wrote the story, and afterwards... when he seemed like he wanted to have it all make more sense to himself, rather than just being a story device. In other words, it seemed like his earlier concept might have been that they were more powerful... and that in his later concepts, he made them less powerful.

Anyway - I don't seem to have the research results on my hands to back that up, or even the time and opportunity to explore those possibilities just now.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Dag-nab it Attalus, I haven't been able to do any significant research yet, and prospects for the near future still look about as bleak.



Anyway - I don't seem to have the research results on my hands to back that up, or even the time and opportunity to explore those possibilities just now.

I think my own concept of the Nazgûl dates from my earliest readings of the tale. It was the incident of the Prancing Pony. I thought, "Merry got away from them? A stable boy scared them off? There are so amny of them, why don't they just knock the place over. It's an inn, not a fortress for crying out loud." And then Aragorn and the Hobbits run them off with torches? Man, these guys are just scary, they can't really do much. If you admit defeat, I will have to change my siggy quote.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

As related in "The Hunt For the Ring," the Ringwraiths' overwhelming imperative was to get the Ring. The reason that they did what they did was that it was the only thing they could do. They were trying to pierce Frodo's heart with the Morgul-knife, which would have immediately have turned him into a wraith, which they would have just taken with them, Ring and all, and Aragorn wouldn't have been able to intevene, as he did, decisively. They held on, hoping that the splinter , doubtless somewhat under the W-K's control, would indeed pierce Frodo's heart, but he outlasted it. It was only when the party was about to enter Rivendell, where they knew that Elrond would remove the splinter, that they panicked and were forced into action, .

I like your explanation about Morgul-knife and deal with a sudden attack at the Fort, even if my POV on Nazguls agenda quite differs from the traditional.You are trying to clarify things and actions without an excuse "Because it just as Tolkien wrote", but by analyzing facts and actions, which usually leads to some interesting findings like this one.
But "The hunt for the Ring" relate many not so obvious impressions, which is no less important and had to be taken in consideration. And according to them the" Ringwraith's overwhelming imperative" seems is totally different.
I don't think they were powerless, don't forget that they literally crashed experienced in the fights Dunedain,that Gandalf with all his fighting skills and magic just managed to "escape",and then they got scared away by man with torch or by distant Elve's song?They couldn't be driven away that easily, unless it was included in their plans.

Originally Posted by Nolendil

Fat Middle doesn't want to know why the horses bear the Nazgul, he wants to know why or how it is that the animals (at least common dogs and geese) howl and scream at them.

Because animals somehow feel the presence of dead bodies, death.Dogs usually howl before the death of somebody from household.

[Attalus]

Oh, I don't think they are powerless, at all. They can still wield blades, obviously, and there are nine of them, enough to divide up and do different things, search, for instance, and reunite to gang up on individuals, like Gandalf. Don't forget that they attacked at night on Weathertop, both times, when they were at their strongest. But, while "They have no great physical power against the fearless" may seem dismissive, I think JRRT is just saying they are not great warriors, like Boromir or Aragorn, and that they rely on the fear that they wield to unman their opponents. If that doesn't work, like against Gandalf and Aragorn, they have a problem, and they lost both encounters, doubtless to Sauron's wrath. As regards the inn, I insist that Aragorn or Boromir with eight (or five) ordinary men-of-arms of the Dunedain could have cleared that place in half an hour, assuming it was an identical inn in Harad or someplace where there was something that they wanted, guarded by similar Orcs.

[ItalianLegolas]

[QUOTE=Valandil]
I guess my thinking had been that JRRT was a little inconsistent... [QUOTE]

well you have to remeber he had to write a 1,300 page novel!!
but i think that since the ring-wraiths were bound to Sauron via their rings, he could control them and give them as little or as much power as he wanted, following this thinking, is it possible that the results of Weathertop were just a gross under-estimation of Aragorn by Sauron?

[Kelawyn]

Originally Posted by Attalus

But, while "They have no great physical power against the fearless" may seem dismissive, I think JRRT is just saying they are not great warriors, like Boromir or Aragorn, and that they rely on the fear that they wield to unman their opponents.

I think fear is really their greatest weapon, and that it is a very legitimate weapon. How many fights are over before they start because one side cannot bear the fear the other instills? Their shrieks, the Black Breath, the feeling of utter despair (I'm especially thinking of the first time the hobbits hear the call as they flee the Shire and when the Nazgul fly over Minas Tirith and Pippin and the Gondorian fall to the ground in despair and cannot even think) are their weapons from the wraith world. I think it is perfect that Tolkien gives the greatest servants of evil very little power except fear. The weak of heart, not the weak of body, can fall prey to the Nazgul, but the strong (IMO easily) overcome them.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Kelawyn

The weak of heart, not the weak of body, can fall prey to the Nazgul, but the strong (IMO easily) overcome them.

he-he...
You are saying , that the Rangers, the descendants of mightyand brave Numenorians, which were desperately and stoically trying to bar the Nazguls way to the Shire, were slain and driven away by the Nine because they were "weak of heart"?

[Attalus]

I think that, yes, the Dunedain, deprived of their chieftain, Aragorn, were at a lower than desirable morale state, and were fear-struck to run away and be destroyed or at least disorganized. Don't forget that the Witch-King had already all but destroyed the Dunedain of the North. I wish we knew whether Halbarad was there, but even if he were, he is obviously less charismatic and not near the warrior that Aragorn was.

[Kelawyn]

Yes, the Rangers weren't at their best. Tolkien emphasizes again and again that who appears to be strongest is not and that "all that is gold does not glitter."

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I think that, yes, the Dunedain, deprived of their chieftain, Aragorn, were at a lower than desirable morale state, and were fear-struck to run away and be destroyed or at least disorganized.
...that the Witch-King had already all but destroyed the Dunedain of the North.
I wish we knew whether Halbarad was there, but even if he were, he is obviously less charismatic and not near the warrior that Aragorn was.

Oh, yes, considering that he was saying of the hobbits:"A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not," he was among the Rangers who guarded the Shire.
Since Aragorn took a long leave from his responsibility as a Chieftain of Dunedain , somebody must take the leadership in his absence, and it should be the person no less charismatic and brave than Aragorn himself, precisely Halbarad, because it was him who led 30 Dunedain to Rohan to help Aragorn.
Besides, if person says “This is an evil door, and my death lies beyond it. I will dare to pass it nonetheless..." (RotK), I wouldn’t put him in category of people with “ lower then desirable morale”.

Before putting all blame on the Witch King don't forget that that by dividing and feuding with each other the kingdoms of Arnor was already dwindling and the Great plague greatly helped to uninhabit already getting desolated places.

[Attalus]

I didn't say Halbarad was less than doughty, but my experience with small-unit combat indicates that the presence of a very charismatic leader will frequently spell the difference between victory and defeat, and we are expressly told by JRRT that Aragorn was not with them.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Attalus

...that the presence of a very charismatic leader will frequently spell the difference between victory and defeat, and we are expressly told by JRRT that Aragorn was not with them.

I think it is better to have a not that "very charismatic leader ", than a charismatic leader, who abandoned his duty and his troop.
Besides, by welcoming and warmth with which Aragorn met Halbarad comes the feeling that Aragorn himself approved Halbarad as a very capable leader of Dunedain in his absence.

[Attalus]

*shrugs* However charismatic he may or may not have been, or how fond Aragorn was of him, the Rangers got driven from Sarn Ford, and, Tolkien hints, Aragorn's presence might have made the difference. And I hardly think Aragorn "deserted" his men. He was off in Rivendell. Surely the man deserves some R&R every once in a while.

[Blackheart]

I actually remember reading, in a letter somewhere, that the nazgul were under orders to be circumspect in their actions in the early part of the war.

Sauron didn't want it widely known that "the nine were abroad", not yet anyway, for various strategic and tactical reasons that are probably debatable.

The fact that they were under orders to be secretive and circumspect in their actions likely contributes to what otherwise appears to be a puzzling timidity on the part of undead servants of what (basically) amounts to a dark god...

What were their actual capabilities if they were allowed to go all out? That is debatable, but I doubt that anyone would argue that it would be particulalry pleasant.

Sorcery, Sorcerous weapons, and quite probably some very tactically shrewd minds, are just the basic hazards.

The "black breath" appears to be simply the overwhelming force of evil inherent in their being.. or unbeing. They are sustained by the rings, rings forged to draw on a source of power revealed to the elven smiths by Sauron. Which turns out to be the actual power of Morgoth that he invested into the world.

The black breath brings despair and darkness and the death of hope exactly because it is "sourced" directly from the will and power of Morgoth (the remnants anyway). If you look back you can see this theme several times in the Sil, from Ungolient's darkness to Morgoth's hatred.

So aside from just inspiring terror, the very presence of the Nazgul is hazardous to the spirit, and in some cases fatal as the spirit of the afflicted would just waste away.

It would have taken a very powerful spirit to resist such a power. Elf Lords, Wizards, and uncrowned Kings aside...