Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Earniel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
You're very welcome - you've asked some great questions and I've enjoyed trying my best to give good answers to the best of my understanding. (BTW, I still have your evolution/creationism email, but I'll have to put it on the back burner until this thread slows down a bit, okay?)

Really, RÃ*an take all the time you need. My own reply was a far cry from speedy. I think it took me several months. I can wait, don't worry about it.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, that would be because we've all been conned at some time or another, by a "sincere" "christian", who was basically so intent on recruiting victims for his/her church, that (s)he didn't really care about the potential recruitee. I wish there were more out there like Rian, then maybe I wouldn't feel so antsy about religion.

Too true. I remember the funeral of my aunt. That lousy priest kept whining (sorry but he really did!) about how 'we were all here gathered because of God'. A good thing he added 'and to say farewell to our beloved friend and familymember'. He did that several times. I got so angry, I would have walked right out. The only reason I was there was because of my aunt, not on behalf of any religion. And the only reason I stayed was because of my aunt and family. That was the last time ever I went to a church.

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
You're currently studying for a degree in theology, right?

*snip*

Affirmative.

Well, that's sounds like an impressive collection of books you have there, RÃ*an. I'm trying to get my personal library started, but due to finanical constraints I must make do with the following for now:

Bibles

• King James Version (hardcopy and electronic)
• New International Version (hardcopy)
• Revised Standard Version (hardcopy and electronic)
• World English Bible (electronic)
• Wycliffe New Testament (electronic)
• Greek New Testament (electronic)
• Young's Literal Translation (electronic)
• Perhaps more...

Bible Dictionary

• The Anchor Bible Dictionary

General

• An Introduction to the New Testament. Raymond E. Brown.
• The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. Raymond E. Brown.
• A Marginal Jew: The Roots of the Problem and the Person. John P. Meier.
• A Marginal Jew: Mentor, Message, and Miracles. John P. Meier.
• A Marginal Jew: Companions and Competitors .John P. Meier.

My problem is that I have a car to buy, an apartment to move into, and the other two thirds of CHoMe are still waiting for me. There's just not enough money to go around.

My goal is to have at least three commentaries per book (i.e. three for Genesis) at my disposal, and I think that's where the next book budget is headed. Unfortunately I cannot for whatever reason stand softcover books -- everything must be hardcover, and this makes everything much more expensive.

Thanks for giving me an idea of your collection. Most of the authors mentioned are familiar to me.

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
Part I - Andúril's so-called "strong" omnipotence
First - re the Lewis quote and the Unger's dictionary def of omnipotence - you seem to think that I don't see the two types of omnipotence that you discussed (i.e., what you call "strong" and "weak" omnipotence) contained in these quotes. You're wrong - I do.

You do? In that case, why did you state the following:

Since Andúril has shared his def of omnipotence, which I would characterize as not widely known and/or accepted, I'll take a moment to share a def that is found in The New Unger's Bible Dictionary, which I would describe as a well-known work that may be found in many book stores. [my emphasis (bold)]

You explicitly stated that my definition of omnipotence was not widely known and/or accepted, and then you quote a contradictory passage that contains implicit references to the underlying principles that you dispute!

I have just looked at my analysis of the Lewis quote, and it seems that I had misread the third sentence. I saw it as:

There is no limit to His power.

Therefore I take back my claim regarding Lewis's redefining. I now claim that he is referring to weak omnipotence.

With the Unger's passage, however, the definition changes from an implicit weak omnipotence to an implicit strong omnipotence. I am not sure how you were able to miss such a blatant redefinition:

Weak omnipotence in blue, strong omnipotence in red:
Omnipotence. Exclusively an attribute of God and essential to the perfection of His being. .... By ascribing to God absolute power, it is not meant that God is free from all the restraints of reason and morality, as some have taught, but that He is able to do everything that is in harmony with His wise and holy and perfect nature ... The infinite power of God is set before us in the Scriptures in connection with His work of creation (Gen. 1:1, Rom. 1:20), His work of upholding the world (Heb 1:3), the redemption of mankind (Luke 1:35,37; Eph. 1:19), the working of miracles (Luke 9:43), the conversion of sinners (1 Cor. 2:5; 2 Cor 4:7), and the complete accomplishment of the great purpose of His kingdom (Matt. 6:13; 13:31-32; 1 Pet. 1:5, 1 Cor. 15; Rev. 19;6).

It doesn't get more obvious than that.

More:
But that doesn't invalidate what those quotes say.

Really? You would still appeal to Unger's take in light of the obvious contradiction?

More:
In fact, both of those quotes bring up what YOU call "strong omnipotence" and reveal it for what it really is - something that is entirely irrelevant, can never exist in reality and is therefore meaningless to even try to apply to God.

Almost, but not quite. The first half of the Unger definition argues against strong omnipotence, while the second half advocates it. Unless "infinite" actually means "finite", this contradiction is irreconcilable. Lewis (in agreement with us), holds that "nonsense" (illogic) cannot exist. This position is not shared by all.

[Andúril]

More:
Where in the Bible does it discuss things that are syntactically possible but logically impossible? Nowhere - and why should it?

Since infinite power is power unlimited, there is no reason why such power should exclude all syntactically possible actions, both logically possible and not.

Additionally, Gwaimir Windgem has claimed that logic does not apply to God -- this renders possible all actions, whether logical (to us) or not.

Now, why should I have to defend strong omnipotence? I am not the one who claims that God has infinite power, or is not constrained by logic. The New Unger's Bible Dictionary has asserted the former, and Gwaimir has asserted the latter. Your contention should be with them, not me. You might want to take issue with J.A. Mchugh as well, who states:

Catholic Encyclopedia: Omnipotence
When it is said that God can or could do a thing, the terms are not to be understood in the sense in which they are applied to created causes, but as conveying the idea of a Being possessed of infinite unchangeable power, the range of Whose activity is limited only by His sovereign Will.

*snip*

In the Old Testament there are more than seventy passages I(sic) which God is called Shaddai, i.e. omnipotent. The Scriptures represent this attribute as infinite power (Job, xlii, 2; Mark, x, 27; Luke, 1, 37); Matt., xix, 26, etc.) which God alone possesses (Tob., xiii, 4; Ecclus. I, 8; etc.).

Mchugh further quotes Aquinas:

"Now Divine Being, which is the basis of Divine power, is infinite, not being limited to any category of being but containing within itself the perfection of all being".

And finally, if you do a Google search for "infinite power of God", you will come across many who advocate such.

More:
As you yourself said so well back on page 4:

So why even bother to coin a term for something (i.e., "strong omnipotence") that can't even exist?

Easy reference.

More:
And if you DO coin a term for this, then why in the world give it such a misleading name as "strong" omnipotence??

I am not sure if you have taken into account this vital fact -- that I did not coin this term myself. I already answered your question regarding where I got the term. I think it is quite strange that you first thought that I did not coin the term myself, but then critize the "misleading name" that I allegedly coined. Am I correct about this?

More:
There is nothing "strong" about something that can't even exist!

An object need not be extant in order to be described. Why don't you take issue with the term "strong atheist", or examine the issue of whether Santa is underweight or obese.

More:
I think a more correct "coinage" would be something like "illogical and unable to exist in reality and completely irrelevant to anything that exists omnipotence".

Thanks, but you will have to express this opinion to everyone who uses the term, not just me. Those who think that logic does not really apply to God will disagree with you on the criteria "unable to exist in reality and completely irrelevant to anything that exists".

More:
The ONLY reason that I can possibly see for coining a term for this is so you can discuss how illogical it is with other people - for example, "some people say that God can do things that are completely illogical and intrinsically impossible. This concept is referred to as IAUTEIRACITATE (illogical and unable to exist in reality and completely irrelevant to anything that exists) omnipotence.

Well, since I did not coin the term, it will exist whether I discuss it or not.

More:
Of course, this is a complete fallacy. As Mr. C. S. Lewis puts it so succinctly, 'Nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.' "

Tell that to Unger, Gwaimir, Mchugh, and everyone else that advocates infinite power or a deity not constrained by logic.

More:
So if you want to give that concept a name, by all means let's give it a name, but an appropriate one, like "illogical omnipotence" or "irrelevant omnipotence" or "nonexistent omnipotence".

A strong atheist (relative to your god-concept) would ask you in return to give your god-concept an appropriate name, perhaps along the lines of "an incoherent god-concept".

I see no more reason to alter this term than to alter the term "strong atheism".

[Rían]

*sees nice things that people have said about her, and blushes 10 shades of red*

Thank you so much I'm really honored that you've seen some of God's love thru me. I certainly give him the credit - I think I was the most selfish and self-centered person on the entire planet at one point in time, and He's worked really wonderful changes in me. And that's just one of the wonderful things about Christianity - it's not merely rules/philosophy, but it's about a loving relationship with the Creator of the universe.

We just got back from church - another wonderful sermon and great worship time. I sure wish you guys could all be there with me

I'll get back to you on Monday, Andúril, re omnipotence, since it's a day of rest for us Christians

[Wayfarer]

snip*/Since infinite power is power unlimited, there is no reason why such power should exclude all syntactically possible actions, both logically possible and not./*snip

Allow me to suggest that perhaps your definition is in need of some revision.

Power is the ability to perform work. Since n Power=n Work, then Infinite power is the ability to perform infinite work.

[Arien the Maia]

I'm a Catholic and my family comes from Germany, Ireland, France, England and Wales.
I love Tolkien's take on the Creation and I feel a special connection with it because he was a strong Catholic and put alot of it into his works

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I feel much the same way, Arien, though I'm not Catholic: but I am definitely Christian, and feel Christian ties with LotR.

*wonders how sickening the non-Christians find this *

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I feel much the same way, Arien, though I'm not Catholic: but I am definitely Christian, and feel Christian ties with LotR.

*wonders how sickening the non-Christians find this *

I get sick of it when my friends (Christian or not) are always saying that Lotr is a "pagan" work....

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hehe. I don't have that problem, but I can certainly understand how that would be annoying. But it is not; it is kinda like an adaptation of Nordic mythology to a 'prehistoric' Christianity. You can tell your friends that Tolkien himself said that it wasn't.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Hehe. I don't have that problem, but I can certainly understand how that would be annoying. But it is not; it is kinda like an adaptation of Nordic mythology to a 'prehistoric' Christianity. You can tell your friends that Tolkien himself said that it wasn't.

I do! They're just stubborn! lol

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
I get sick of it when my friends (Christian or not) are always saying that Lotr is a "pagan" work....

Hey Arien (BTW, nice name! I like Arien - she really defies Morgoth to his face!), just give your friends this quote, from Da Man himself, JRRT -

from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter #183
In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Maybe they'll listen with a direct quote.

[Wayfarer]

Addendum: regarding omnipotence

I would like to further add that the amount of power available for work relates to the task performed only in a limiting, and not in a selective manner.

That is to say, there is a minimum amount of effort that must be expended to perform any (possible) task, which means that something could be too difficult. However, one that minimal threshold has been reached, so that a given task can be achieved, other factors (i.e. character) determine if it will be achieved.

When you are discussing omnipotence (which is as I pointed out above the ability to perform an infinite amount of work), there is no possibility that any given task could be too difficult. In which case factors apart from power will always make the decision whether something will be done.

To summarize and conclude: God is omnipotent, which means that nothing is too difficult for him. What he does is not determined by power, but by character.

Understand?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Hey Arien (BTW, nice name! I like Arien - she really defies Morgoth to his face!), just give your friends this quote, from Da Man himself, JRRT -

RÃ*an (that's a good name too!) I soooo need to get that book! but yes I will remember that the next time the discussion happens to come up! Thanks!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Maybe they'll listen with a direct quote.

They better or I will pound them! no not really! I am too much of a pacifist to do that!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Andúril
My problem is that I have a car to buy, an apartment to move into, and the other two thirds of CHoMe are still waiting for me. There's just not enough money to go around.

No kidding - I don't think I'll be able to get any more HoME books for quite some time...

My goal is to have at least three commentaries per book (i.e. three for Genesis) at my disposal, and I think that's where the next book budget is headed. Unfortunately I cannot for whatever reason stand softcover books -- everything must be hardcover, and this makes everything much more expensive.

Eep! It sure does! HoME books cost about $30 hardcover, and $18 softcover. You'll just have to strike your personal balance between aesthetics and having/not having good books, I suppose.

Thanks for giving me an idea of your collection. Most of the authors mentioned are familiar to me.

You're welcome Have you read any Lewis? What are some books that you like?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
RÃ*an (that's a good name too!) I soooo need to get that book! but yes I will remember that the next time the discussion happens to come up! Thanks!

Glad you like my 'name' - I've always liked the look and sound of it, although what little is mentioned of her is sad... but she sure had a great son!

Letters is fabulous! I hope you can get it soon. And you're welcome for the quote

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Yes, that's what my view on omnipotence has been all along: "Nothing is to difficult for thee" to quote a praise song. Too bad I can't word what I want to say!

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Glad you like my 'name' - I've always liked the look and sound of it, although what little is mentioned of her is sad... but she sure had a great son!

Letters is fabulous! I hope you can get it soon. And you're welcome for the quote