Theological Opinions , PART II

[Lief Erikson]

I'm editing smilies out of your post in quotes so that I can include the maximum smilies in mine.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

That’s pretty interesting, but I don’t trust humanity enough to tell me what is black and what is white,

That's smart.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

even if they claim to be speaking on behalf of a higher, trustworthy power.

That's smart too, unless they prove that they are speaking on behalf of the higher, trustworthy power by highly convincing wonders, signs and miracles (that's what God does).

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

(Even if I believed in God and prophets, I might wind up trusting a false prophet.)

That's why the Bible has several verses describing how to distinguish between false and true prophets.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I don’t feel like deciding for myself either, because IMO my judgments just won’t matter.

That's smart too! I feel the same about myself.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I don't think life, time, and people are concepts, but unquestionable facts.

I don't know about "unquestionable" (we might all be in the Matrix), but I don't see there as being much point in questioning them.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

They exist, and that's a given, so I’m sure they make sense as well.

Granted. I'm taking that they exist as a postulate too. I also accept that things make sense- I'm just trying to figure out how they work. And that's where all the different "concepts" come in, such as what it is to be "human" or have "original sin," things like that. And thinking about time might lead one to questions of timelessness. And thinking about life might lead to thinking about all its facets. There's a lot that's confusing about people, time and life. A lot unknown. And that's where all sorts of concepts come in, biological, philosophical, psychological and religious. And probably more types of concepts I haven't mentioned .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Oh, man. How cool would that have been?

Cool. But not as cool as the story is without the vest .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I agree, most of them can’t be explained (though psychology impresses me with the amount of explanations it presents), but what they suggest to me is a lapse in our knowledge of the sciences, not necessarily divine intervention. I’m sure at least some events credited as miracles are falsely credited. Especially the very common ones, like a lost dog wandering back home or a premature baby being born healthy. Hey, it happens.

Oh yes, I totally agree with you there. I'm sure lots of scientific phenomena has been viewed as miracles in the past, and that many of those things have been refuted now. I'm positive of that; I totally agree with you. And I also expect you're right that sometimes prayer can "heal" because the people psychologically think they're going to get well, and thus through their faith literally heal themselves.

A lot of miracles can't be explained away in these ways, however. For example, just because people think that their bad leg is going to grow a couple inches in the next few minutes to match the other, that can't cause it to grow a couple inches. Psychology can't explain that.

So there are the scientifically unexplainable miracles, and there also are the miracles that are explainable, but the explanation pushes the limits of belief (or unbelief ). But then there also is a key fact about miracles that are scientifically explainable, that makes them far less explainable. This is the coincidence factor. Many acts of God in our lives, his answers to prayers and such, are scientifically explainable. Many could be shrugged off as coincidence. However, the trouble is that the coincidences pile up. They keep happening and happening and happening, as with Brother Andrew. Sure, there are plenty of prayers that aren't answered, especially in the beginning, but as the Christian comes to know the Lord more and more closely, those prayers that aren't answered in the affirmative become fewer.

For instance, let me relate an example my learning process with the Lord. He teaches us lessons, and often he is unpredictable. This has been my personal lesson for how he interacts with me in the gift of healing.

When I was very new in my relationship with God, I decided to act in God's power of healing. One morning I was sick and had a fun activity I really wanted to do that evening, but was too sick to do it, so I prayed God would heal me. I had great faith all day long that he would heal me, but he didn't.

Another time I had a little cold. I prayed very earnestly that God would heal me and had absolute faith that he would, but he didn't . I didn't have any reason for asking for healing from that one either- I just wanted to see God being cool.

Twice I prayed over adult Christians who were sick and had much more need to be better, but again it was because I wanted to see God being cool and not for any good reason. Nothing happened.

Later in my relationship with God, I was helping to lead a youth meeting at our church and I had to be there. I was badly sick with a cold and was blowing my nose all over the house . Gross though that sounds. I prayed that God would take care of me, and that time I really needed the help, for I had a responsibility to attend to. God was gracious and lifted the cold from me for all the time I was with the youth group, so that I didn't sneeze during my couple hours there at all.

Another time, later in my relationship with God also, I was in a movie theater watching LoTR and was feeling very ill. I wasn't enjoying the film much because I was so sick (though I love those movies, just for the record!), and as the movie went on I realized I had to throw up. The feeling kept worsening and there wasn't time to get to the bathroom. I prayed that God would look after me, for that time I really needed his help, and he healed me so that the urge left completely.

This week I started out really sick, but I prayed that God would heal me because I have some major school papers I have to write this week, and he has answered my prayer and the sickness, which started out severe, was greatly reduced after having been a fury for just a couple days.

You could of course say any of this is coincidence or natural occurrence. My experience with healing is almost completely of a very personal sort, and none of those incidents I've just mentioned is at all dramatic. It's just in my experience, when I need the healing, I get well, when I don't need the healing, nothing happens. So that's a lesson I've learned for myself. The only reason I mention this is just as an example to say that prayers are answered more as one comes to know God better, because one makes more mistakes about his will when one is less mature. I think that would probably make logical sense to you, if it was real.

The fact that people pray and coincidences keep occurring and occur more and more as they come to know God is important.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

This is what I was getting at when I asked if you’ve ever tried living less religiously.

Yes, as I answered before, I lived completely without God for thoughts for the first fifteen years of my life. And seeing as I'm only 20 years old now, that period wasn't that long ago and isn't tough to remember. I had virtually no experience of meeting God for the first fifteen years of my life. Almost zilch. I hadn't heard from my Mom about the electric fence episode either. The only experience I felt I'd had from God was one I did remember from when I was very young.

A babysitter had been walking me and my sister around an amusement park, and we had reached a rendezvous where we were supposed to meet my parents. They were late, and they kept getting later and later and later. I was getting terribly thirsty, so I prayed that God would make them arrive that instant, because I was so thirsty. Then I looked around expectantly, and they arrived at that instant. So that was the only experience of God I'd had in those fifteen years that I could rely on.

At fifteen years old, I hadn't met God and talked with him and was afraid to arrange him for a meeting, because I was terribly afraid he wouldn't show up and my Christianity would be proven false and useless. I believed in him sort of, but had no experience of him and relied not on him at all in my day to day life. So yes, I know what it was like to not have God in my life.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I’m extremely hesitant to comment on this because I don’t want you to think I’m downplaying that experience for you. I’ve never felt anything on that level before, and don’t feel qualified to argue about it.

Logical. It's the only time I've ever felt anything on that level either, no matter how I've sought or desired it since. There have been some very, very powerful experiences of God's presence, but none quite like that. And the shocking thing was how totally unawares that came on me. It springs to mind the title of C.S. Lewis' book, "Surprised By Joy."

But it makes sense that it should occur if one accepts that God exists. I was thinking just at that moment, "I'm not sure if I believe in that kind of experience." So one might easily imagine God responding, "Oh, you're not sure are you? Well here!"

Anyway though, I won't belabor this. My goal is not to convince people to believe in God based on my experiences, or my family's or friends' experiences. What I really want is to convince people to start praying that if God exists, he will reveal himself personally to them in a way that will convince them that he is real and loves them.

In the scripture it says, "ask and you will receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened." I've experienced that in my own life, for when I came to know God my faith was nothing. It was not strong enough to arrange a meeting or anything. I just kept relentlessly praying that God would reveal himself to me, and then he did, and he did in a way that still has me convinced to this day it was him. Though I don't have to rely only on that encounter; there have been so many more encounters since then! I know I can trust him and rely on him because experience of day to day relationship has proven that for me.

But anyway, my desire is just to convince people to give God a chance. I'm trying to point people toward the door. Then when they knock, I believe that Jesus will open the door in a way that they can accept. None of that part is my responsibility- it's God's. Though I would be glad to pray with anyone who chooses to take that route.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

However, you reminded me of a question: Do you think that there is a difference between a sudden personal realization and divine revelation?

I'm certain of it. I've experienced both, and there's a profound difference. When I have really good ideas, I often thank God for them just because all is in his hands, but that's not the same as a divine revelation. A divine revelation can come in a large number of ways. One is a thought just coming into your mind totally out of nowhere that is a really, really good thought.

For instance, once I was on a trip to Mexico building a house for a poverty stricken family. I was with a team and we had received an enormous amount of prayer before going. I consider that to be the reason the trip was so totally glorious and filled with love and pleasure all the way through, but that's beside the point. My younger brother seemed to me to be acting a bit lofty because he had been working with the planks for some time and I was just joining in, so he knew what he was doing a bit more than I did, and he and I were working together. Few older brothers will like being shown up by their younger brothers, so I was just about to make a defensive comment to put him in his place, when all of a sudden a thought just burst into my mind totally out of nowhere (it felt distinctly not from me, and it's not like me either ) that said, "Why don't you compliment him on listening so well to the instructions about the planks?"

Instead of putting my brother in his place, I followed the instructions of that thought from nowhere, and we had a very good, warm conversation afterward. Later on, I learned that one of the men from our group had been working outside and had overheard our conversation through the wall, and that hearing us had really made his day. I never mentioned to him that it had only happened because of the Lord, though perhaps I should have. I've got my weaknesses- accepting the praise for myself without giving God the credit he deserves can be really fun .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

In the absolute least judgmental and most sincerely nicest way possible , I wonder if you think yourself capable of thinking independently, thinking some things independently, or totaly dependent on God for thoughts?

I don't think anyone can come up with anything independently, for I believe in predestination. However, I do think there is a distinct difference between human ideas and thoughts that come from God. There is a major, massive difference. Having experienced a lot of bright human ideas and also a number of divine ideas, I claim there is a major difference that will be very apparent to almost anyone experiencing the divine ideas.

Anyway, enough with overwhelming you. I eagerly await your response!

~Lief

[Lief Erikson]

Am I verbose or what? You don't have to respond to everything I wrote above Bombadillo, you know . But I will be happy to read whatever you do reply .

~Lief

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Let's just say the correct answer is not 'what'.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I'm having a hard time focusing on one thing I want to reply to. Everytime I think I'm ready to, I read something else and immediately I want to reply to that, and then I lose all train of thought. Ugh, focus!

I will throw an idea out now though. It's about why there is 24 hrs in a day and the creation of the moon.

There's a theory about how the moon was created called the "Big Splash" theory. It says that when the earth was young, about 4.6 billion years ago, a planet size asteroid, of mostly iron and about the size of mars, slammed into earth sending debris into space. This also tilted and sent the earth spinning. The earth still had a strong gravitational pull and the debris was so hot that it fused together and formed the moon. The earth, after a long time, then began it's 24 hr cycle and the seasons were than formed. This explains why earth is on an axis and why we have a moon that has no iron and why our core is almost completely iron. Just throwing out a thought.


Here's a diagram conducted by a computer of how it looked.

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/...+Moon+was+made.

I am sorry I haven't replyed to everything I wanted to. I'll try to do my best to keep up with guys.

[Lief Erikson]

*Begins writing a massive response to Gwaimir . . . *

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I'm having a hard time focusing on one thing I want to reply to. Everytime I think I'm ready to, I read something else and immediately I want to reply to that, and then I lose all train of thought. Ugh, focus!

I know what you mean, it's like Socrates said in the Republic. I've not had a good banquet, because I keep changing to whatever happens to come by.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

*Begins writing a massive response to Gwaimir . . . *

*runs and hides*

[Lief Erikson]

That's an interesting theory about the moon, Faramir. I am not one of those who thinks the moon popped into being as result of an astounding miracle. I think God used natural scientific processes he'd invented and created the moon with them.

But the science is very interesting. I really wonder how science's results will have changed, improved and built on themselves in twenty or thirty years .

[Gwaimir Windgem]

A couple hundred years from now, people will scoff at and ridicule us for believing in much we believe in, just as we now scoff at the ancients for believing in humours and things like that.

It's a wicious cycle.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

There's a theory about how the moon was created called the "Big Splash" theory........

Yes, I've heard of that theory also when I took Astronomy and Geology in college. Someone had figured out that the floor of the Atlantic Ocean dimensions are almost exactly the shape of the Moon. It may well be proved true in the future we all hope to see.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

A couple hundred years from now, people will scoff at and ridicule us for believing in much we believe in, just as we now scoff at the ancients for believing in humours and things like that.

It's a wicious cycle.

I totally agree. It's nice to keep that in mind, so as to better keep everything in perspective .

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

A couple hundred years from now, people will scoff at and ridicule us for believing in much we believe in, just as we now scoff at the ancients for believing in humours and things like that.

I'm ahead of my time. I scoff at people now for what they believe in.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That's an interesting theory about the moon, Faramir. I am not one of those who thinks the moon popped into being as result of an astounding miracle. I think God used natural scientific processes he'd invented and created the moon with them.

But the science is very interesting. I really wonder how science's results will have changed, improved and built on themselves in twenty or thirty years .

I'd be very interested in your idea of the moon creation. If God used natual science, in what way did he do this? There are theorys that say that the earth was spinning so fast at the begining that it split in two and that's how the moon formed. Another says that the moon was just "floating by" and was sucked in by the earths pull. This one I don't get.

I'm not trying to turn this in to a science discussion, just curious as to how you think God used science is all.

[Spock]

God used the textbook, approved in Kansas, for Science 101.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I'd be very interested in your idea of the moon creation. If God used natual science, in what way did he do this? There are theorys that say that the earth was spinning so fast at the begining that it split in two and that's how the moon formed. Another says that the moon was just "floating by" and was sucked in by the earths pull. This one I don't get.

I'm not trying to turn this in to a science discussion, just curious as to how you think God used science is all.

An example . . . let's say you're a computer programer. You invent programs and submit them to your computer, and the programs do things for you. In the same way, God might create natural processes, "submit" them into creation, and accomplish things through them. Perhaps a feeble example. But as a programer is in charge of all his program (unless it gets too big or complex for him to handle, in which case he gets help. God has no such problems), so I think God is in control of nature, of events, of scientific processes he invented.

I think God might have invented evolution and used it to create the creatures of the world. I think he created the planets and the universe and everything that exists, but I think he did much of it through science- his science. All science is his and comes from him, in my view. I think everything in the world and in his universe is under his direct control, and that's why glorious, magnificent things have come into being. All our five senses are so, so wonderful. Visible light is astoundingly wonderful. The artistic beauty of the universe all has the fingerprint of a magnificent Creator on it.

So anyway, the moon theory you suggested may very well be right! I'm not arguing against that at all. I don't know enough about moon theories to argue one over any others, unfortunately. It'd be really neat to have firm views and evidence to support them for how the moon came into existence. My view is just that however the moon came into being, God was in charge of the process.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

....... My view is just that however the moon came into being, God was in charge of the process.

are you sure He didn't subcontract it out?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

are you sure He didn't subcontract it out?

No, I certainly can't be certain! He might have. He certainly could afford it . . .

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I'm having a hard time focusing on one thing I want to reply to. Everytime I think I'm ready to, I read something else and immediately I want to reply to that, and then I lose all train of thought. Ugh, focus!

Dude, Firefox. Without it, I wouldn't be half as fluent as I seem. Tabbed browsing all the way!

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

An example . . . let's say you're a computer programer. You invent programs and submit them to your computer, and the programs do things for you. In the same way, God might create natural processes, "submit" them into creation, and accomplish things through them. Perhaps a feeble example. But as a programer is in charge of all his program (unless it gets too big or complex for him to handle, in which case he gets help. God has no such problems), so I think God is in control of nature, of events, of scientific processes he invented.

Dahahahaha! I can't believe it was on the internet.

Sorry, but I love the Far Side.


Astronomy sparks my imagination like nothing else. I just thought of two other ways the moon may have been born plus one new explanation on the extinction of dinosaurs in like five seconds.


Lief, you brought up a lot that I wish I could reply to immediately. It would be too offhand though, and wouldn't fully answer your questions, so I'll wait.
It keeps surprising me how much we have in common.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Dahahahaha! I can't believe it was on the internet.

Sorry, but I love the Far Side.

One more thing we have in common . Though I don't buy the comics, but I enjoy them a lot when I come across them. That's a very good one . Perfect with the computer screen . . . and a piano! Not what one would expect. That's part of Far Side's genius!

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Astronomy sparks my imagination like nothing else. I just thought of two other ways the moon may have been born plus one new explanation on the extinction of dinosaurs in like five seconds.

Fun stuff . I'll be interested to hear the ideas! Perhaps the Science forum would be a better place for us to continue that side of the discussion? I don't know much about astronomy, unfortunately, but I would still enjoy reading the theories and commenting on them some.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Lief, you brought up a lot that I wish I could reply to immediately. It would be too offhand though, and wouldn't fully answer your questions, so I'll wait.
It keeps surprising me how much we have in common.

I'll look forward to your responses!

[BeardofPants]

*wonders if G's computer ever crashes when he's in the middle of smotalizing somebody ::hmm::