Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Rían]

you do great with English, Sane!!! I'm looking forward to the race

Originally Posted by sane

Halleh shoma chetoreh?

um, er, *mumbles something appropriate*

[The last sane person]

All I did was ask how you were a doin'!

[Gordis]

BB, in reply to your long letter questioning the actions of the Morgul Lord towards Khamul.

Why did the ML give Khamul command of the Orrodel group? Because being at the University and VERY occupied (he gives 4 courses of lectures!), it was impossible for him to watch the Orrodel family close. And they needed watching: Lilly is a fool, Buz is an alcoholic and completely under Lilly’s heel, Vivvie is too impulsive, especially when angry, and loves to steal beautiful baubles.

So the ML appointed his trusted Second to be his representative in Orrodel. Yes, the ML was not told of the maid. Because, after all, it was a MINOR problem, one silly MORTAL to quieten, and Khamul decided he was perfectly capable on handling it on his own. And he handled it quite well, IMHO.

Originally Posted by BB

"the captain wants calm and secrecy so hands control away to the most hot tempered evil and irrational nazgul imaginable? and does nothing when time after time he blatantly disobeys him?"

That can’t be true, BB. After all, Khamul WAS second to the Chief for 1500 years and is going to be that for 3000 years more. I believe the Morgul Lord (And Sauron) had time enough to come to know Khamul QUITE well and to learn all his weaknesses and strong points.

So, if Khamul were "the most hot tempered, evil and irrational nazgul imaginable" he would have been demoted LONG AGO.
If he wasn’t demoted, than it means that Khamul was NOT exceedingly hot tempered and, especially, NOT IRRATIONAL.

If he is portrayed this way in this RPG, that sounds false.

I believe Khamul was really CUNNINGLY CLEVER and devious, in an oriental way. Yes, very cruel and very evil. And, I believe, he had long learned to check his hot temper and bide his time, when needed.

TD, that is how you should play Khamul. For the most part you are VERY good at it. The best example is how cunningly you have got rid of the maid. You were also quite good at the reception, giving nothing away and suffering in silence. The fight also was good, because what can one do if his underlings are being rebellious?

But this time the public scene was incompatible with the Morgul Lord’s orders. TD, you clearly allowed the Elves to lead you astray. Of course, the public scene was Rian’s idea. But we, nazgul, shouldn’t hearken to Elves.

Of course, you should NOT have shouted out of the window. Wanting "as many people, as possible around" is childish.

You should have invited rpg-Rian ALONE into the house, fire her QUIETLY and politely, because she was away at night, came late and replied to you with contempt. And the servants drinking all night in the kitchen could have been blamed on her. You could even lead her to the kitchen and show the mess: unwashed dishes, no breakfast, bottles of kitchen wine strewn around.
And then you should have allowed her to take her possessions from her room and ask her not to come again.

As it stands now, I agree with BB, the scene is problematic. Public scandal it is. Mostly TD, and then Rian, and now even LMM should be asked to make edits, I believe. That is how I see it.

What say you, other players?

[Rían]

I'm willing to edit the part where Khamul wants to humiliate Rian in front of as many people as possible. I'll change it to he comes outside because he just doesn't want her in the house. I see no good reason to change the rest, though, beyond what I've already done - I've gone back and made very clear that it is a quiet but deadly polite conversation. There is nothing wrong with quietly conversing on a public street, and it is MOST DEFINITELY NOT a "public scandal". NO ONE overheard them, except Prof. Mahtaliel, and only when she came right up to them. If the shouting refs. are toned down, and the seeing the "arguing" is changed a bit, then I think it is fine. Opinions?

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

BB, in reply to your long letter questioning the actions of the Morgul Lord towards Khamul.

Why did the ML give Khamul command of the Orrodel group? Because being at the University and VERY occupied (he gives 4 courses of lectures!), it was impossible for him to watch the Orrodel family close. And they needed watching: Lilly is a fool, Buz is an alcoholic and completely under Lilly’s heel, Vivvie is too impulsive, especially when angry, and loves to steal beautiful baubles.

So the ML appointed his trusted Second to be his representative in Orrodel. Yes, the ML was not told of the maid. Because, after all, it was a MINOR problem, one silly MORTAL to quieten, and Khamul decided he was perfectly capable on handling it on his own. And he handled it quite well, IMHO.



That can’t be true, BB. After all, Khamul WAS second to the Chief for 1500 years and is going to be that for 3000 years more. I believe the Morgul Lord (And Sauron) had time enough to come to know Khamul QUITE well and to learn all his weaknesses and strong points.

So, if Khamul were "the most hot tempered, evil and irrational nazgul imaginable" he would have been demoted LONG AGO.
If he wasn’t demoted, than it means that Khamul was NOT exceedingly hot tempered and, especially, NOT IRRATIONAL.

If he is portrayed this way in this RPG, that sounds false.

I believe Khamul was really CUNNINGLY CLEVER and devious, in an oriental way. Yes, very cruel and very evil. And, I believe, he had long learned to check his hot temper and bide his time, when needed.

TD, that is how you should play Khamul. For the most part you are VERY good at it. The best example is how cunningly you have got rid of the maid. You were also quite good at the reception, giving nothing away and suffering in silence. The fight also was good, because what can one do if his underlings are being rebellious?

But this time the public scene was incompatible with the Morgul Lord’s orders. TD, you clearly allowed the Elves to lead you astray. Of course, the public scene was Rian’s idea. But we, nazgul, shouldn’t hearken to Elves.

Of course, you should NOT have shouted out of the window. Wanting "as many people, as possible around" is childish.

You should have invited rpg-Rian ALONE into the house, fire her QUIETLY and politely, because she was away at night, came late and replied to you with contempt. And the servants drinking all night in the kitchen could have been blamed on her. You could even lead her to the kitchen and show the mess: unwashed dishes, no breakfast, bottles of kitchen wine strewn around.
And then you should have allowed her to take her possessions from her room and ask her not to come again.

As it stands now, I agree with BB, the scene is problematic. Public scandal it is. Mostly TD, and then Rian, and now even LMM should be asked to make edits, I believe. That is how I see it.

What say you, other players?

Very well said, as usual - and I whole-heartedly, completely agree. And yes, 'tis true - us Nazgul should not make it a habit to hearken to Elves! No offense Rian! But everything Gordis so succinctly outlines here makes absolutely perfect sense. RPG-Rian did a good job on her first couple days as Major Domo but then let her job completely slide, so really, Khamul should politely and coldly and professionally fire her, indoors, sitting down, speaking in private, not yammering out windows with a bunch of elves to pay witness to the incredibly ill-mannered and vulgur conversation that is NONE of their business.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

YES I second that (what BB says here to GW)!! I figured the roving wolf gang would have taken their leave after that night conference with Lomi, but that a couple important emisarries would stick around - like White Patch and Old Grey. I love your wolves and birds of prey!

Sorry, Lotesse an' all!

I was just stymied as to what to write about the animals.
So I sent them off temporarily. They'll come back at opportune moment.

Best,
Gw

[Lotesse]

The more I read what RPG-Rian says to Khamul in the story posts, the more vehemently I disagree with how that conversation goes. TD, if I were you, I would NOT allow some snooty, haughty elven maid speak to me like that. And she HAS'NT done a terrific job; she is not finished even going through the entire house yet. She hasn't hired a full staff. She was out all night and into the early morning at a high society function - fine, whatever, but in her absence the house was trashed, a maid went missing after apparantly drinking all the kitchen wine, etcetera and so on. If I were Lilly and/or if I were Khamul, I'd be rightfully fed up with RPG-Rian, and wouldn't even deign to argue with the elf at all. I'd give her a small severance pay, and observe her as she collected her belongings and vacated the premises for good. End of story. I have a very hard time believing the real Khamul would tolerate such a conversation as the one I just read.

[Lotesse]

I must reiterate - I absolutely canNOT believe any of the last 5 posts there,starting and especially the first one written by Rian that tops the page. the real Khamul would never have allowed RPG-Rian speak at such length like that, she would never have been allowed to be so incredibly demeaning and haughty for so long, she would not have been allowed a conversation like that at all. ESPECIALLY in public!! ESPECIALLY with other ELVES allowed to make comments, it is none of their business!!! She would not have been allowed to QUIT if she threw such unbelieveable contempt his way, HE would have taken the power and FIRED her, in PRIVATE, ALONE not with millions of unknown elves hanging around, very coldly matter-of-fact, and very quickly, he would have accompanied her to her former quarters, coldly observed her as she packed, and escorted her off the Orrodel premises for good. The real Khamul didn't get to be so powerful by being a mindless one-dimensional brute, or by arguing at length with ELVES on or in front of his OWN property. And I in NO way can for one second imagine him being spoken to at such length like that, by a HIRED HOUSE SERVANT. He paid HER salary. Even if she happens to be the freakin' hjidden princess of planet middle earth, the fact still remains at this moment she IS HIRED HELP, who needs to be dismissed, not graciously allowed to speaK HER MIND AND THEN ALLOWED TO quit FIRST. wHAT KIND OF POWER DOES THAT MAKE kHAMUL LOOK LIKE HE HAS? iT MAKES HIM LOOK VERY UNBELIEVEABLY WEAK.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Why is it that the most criticism of this scene is coming from the players whose characters aren't in it?

The only people who ought to be discussing problems or requesting edits in the firing scene are TD, Rian, and possibly Earniel, CS and myself.

I would like to see the our fellow players put a little more trust in our abilities to play our own characters as we feel they ought to be played.

[Lotesse]

Because it is all our story, each one of us, whether or not one's character may not be in a particular scene. The scene portrayed between Rian and all the elves, and Khamul, seems so INCREDIBLY unlikely.

[Lotesse]

AND, I can very easily put Viniglaen in front of Orrodel House since she is on her way out anyway, upon her horse, on her way to the race, and nothing could prevent her from not only noticing this lengthy conversation, but waiting there next to Khamul as faithful backup of sorts, while the elves carry on throwing insults like coward etcetera at her superior, for whom she has ultimate respect. I like and agree with what TD wrote, but feel it's so highly unlikely that the scene prior to the one in which TD responds, to have ever happened that way at all.

[The last sane person]

Agreed, the comming out of the house and making a public ass of himself, when already out of place, is rather odd for Khamul, that is certainly not incognito at all, tongues will be a wag by the evening of the same day!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

RPG-Rian did a good job on her first couple days as Major Domo but then let her job completely slide ...

HOW, exactly, did she let her job completely slide? By allowing her employer to murder the maid? I ask you, is that something to reasonably expect your employer might do, not knowing he's a Nazgul, as we're repeatedly reminded? By not restraining a rightful inhabitant of the house trashing his OWN house late at night? By not cleaning an ENTIRE MANSION in less than 2 days?

I agree with Maggie.

And from what I can tell, BB's objections were that it was a public scene. I have made the edits showing very strongly that it was NOT a public scene.

edit - Khamul is NOT making an ass of himself! He is talking politely, and is being spoken to politely. Alagos made a quick movement, but no one besides that group knows what it was about. Perhaps he sneezed.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

It may seem incredibly unlikely, but that doesn't give everyone else the right to bombard them with long messages telling them how they ought to play their characters. You've all given your suggestions, some more politely than others, now it's up to them to take those suggestions and either revise or choose to leave it the way it is, perhaps with the intention of clarifying why this 'unlikely' scene wasn't so unlikely after all. It could be that this scene is perfectly in character and the rest of us just don't know it yet because the parts of their characters that make it so are only just on the verge of being introduced and haven't been fully developed within the story yet.

Have a little patience and wait for the end of the scene before you say that it couldn't possibly happen.

[Rían]

Lotesse, feel free to put Viv on the scene, if that's what you want.

And once more, I repeat - it is a conversation that NO ONE overhears, and that to all appearences is POLITE.

[Lotesse]

I was saying she COULD be there. Not that I necessarily want her there. I strongly, vehemently disagree with that entire scene, and it really colours my entire view of what the story is. I do not want to post anything at all until there is some resolution here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Why is it that the most criticism of this scene is coming from the players whose characters aren't in it?

The only people who ought to be discussing problems or requesting edits in the firing scene are TD, Rian, and possibly Earniel, CS and myself.

I would like to see the our fellow players put a little more trust in our abilities to play our own characters as we feel they ought to be played.

To start with, Rian said herself that the whole scene was her idea, suggested by PM to TD, while TD only went along, being a nice and polite young man he is.

You play your OWN characters very WELL. But you make TD play HIS character in an unacceptable way.

Now on the nazgul side there was Buzukkumarz present, whose present owner is Lotesse. So, she has perfect right to discuss it.

Then there is Lilly. CS is away till Monday, so she still has to say her word. I think SHE portrays Khamul perfectly.

Now, why I am in it. Just because my post was a reply to BB,
who appealed to me as the minder of the Morgul Lord. And, indeed, Khamul actions go blatantly AGAINST his Captain's orders.

What must the ML now do? Demote Khamul forever, obviously, if NOT WORSE. Now can I do that? No. Khamul is always Second to the Chief. It is Tolkien Canon. Demoting or killing him is like killing Lord Elrond at the beginning of the Third Age - impossible.

Of course, the last word is TD's. But he must realize the consequences of Khamul actions.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And once more, I repeat - it is a conversation that NO ONE overhears, and that to all appearences is POLITE.

That no one but all the elves present, and Buz, and Lilly, hear. And it is WAY unpolite. Polite?? Are you kidding? "No one overhears" means just between Khamul and Rian, (between 2 people only,)in a closed room.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Oh, my, Earniel!
I never thought for a moment you were accusing me!
Did it seem as I was accusing YOU? or rebuking you, or something?
If so, I am very sorry. Didn't intend it a moment.

No, it's nothing. But given the history of this game I'd rather thread lightly to avoid more fights.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And, you know English is NOT my mother tongue either. Perhaps we both have a similar problem

It isn't? Eh, it really doesn't show! Forgive the curiosity for prying but what language is your mother tongue then?


Woo now, calm down people. It is up to the people to whom the characters belong, to judge whether and what behaviour is acceptable. I take it that RÃ*an and TD had some discussion via PM prior to posting the scenes. It is for TD, not us, to decide what he deems unfit for Khamul and what not.

He had and still has the opportunity to ask RÃ*an to edit or to refuse to let Khamul behave the way he and RÃ*an agreed on in PM. He does not have to go along with it from the goodness of his heart.

We can give our opinion on the scene, but let TD and RÃ*an decide on how to write that scene, since it doesn't affect the other characters.

[Lotesse]

It affects EVERY other character, Earniel!!