The Lord of the Rings discussion project

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Are you ready to go when needed?

Just post a date and I'm there

[Butterbeer]

sorry, guys, the extension of passing of grey company and the muster of rohan coming monday night!

apologies for delay.
BB

[Nurvingiel]

No worries BB, I'm sure whenever you can finish is fine. We're not school. (Though maybe Azalea feels otherwise. )

I haven't participated in this project in a while. I still think it's really cool, just for the record.

[Finrod Felagund]

Is whoever was doing the dwarven appendix still around? If not, I'll take it..I love the story of the battle at Moria!

[Valandil]

BB - Saw the "Mustard of Rohan" post. I merged it with the "Grey Company" one - since it was the same assignment.

Beren - assuming BB gets his wrapped up soon, two weeks from today is November 8. Can you post then? A day or two before or after is fine, if it turns out to be a bad day or anything.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I recently did it for another forum, so can do it here too if you need me too, just let me know.

FB

i am good with that if val and azalea are fine too

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Beren - assuming BB gets his wrapped up soon, two weeks from today is November 8. Can you post then? A day or two before or after is fine, if it turns out to be a bad day or anything.

No problem, but I might not be able to participate much in the discussion seeing as how my mid-terms are coming up.

[BeardofPants]

Feh, I have an exam today... studying is for sissies! Clearly, you are not prioritising LOTR enough! Go for the eyes boo, go for the eyes!!

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Clearly, you are not prioritising LOTR enough!

So what are you gonna do about it? Steal my pants, I guess?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i am good with that if val and azalea are fine too

cool!!

[Valandil]

Yikes! I've been a bit behind with keeping this moving. I just revised some due dates and added a couple tentative dates. We have a few more coming up with lesser-active mooters, so I'll appreciate any more volunteers to take a particular assignment.

I went back to a 3-week spacing to take us through the Yule Holidays - and then back to 2-weeks after that hopefully. We could potentially get the project chapters all started by about the beginning of summer, if we can manage to more or less stay on schedule from here on out. Oh - and I made that change to have Forkbeard do the other section of the Appendices - so he and I will be tag-teaming on that part of it.

Meanwhile - let's get some posts in on Beren's Book V / Chapter 4. It has another week or so to be the 'active' chapter - at least.

[Butterbeer]

mmmm.....


Azalea
The Lord of the Rings discussion project :

Certainly you may mention ties to the Silmarillion in discussing the chapters. Also, interesting factoids about the life of Tolkien are welcome

it will allow for wider participation for that reason, and part of the goal of this project is to revitalize this forum and to draw in new people,

1.Tell what is/ are the important main events of the chapter(s),

what you mean like the cursing of the dead of dunharrow?

2.Tell what you liked about this/ these chapter(s) – favorite part, scenes that were particularly funny, scary, descriptive, what stands out to you in the chapter.

what, like the fact a whole people or "folk' were cursed and why and how?

Let’s try just for these threads to say that the material contained in the text is canonical, whether or not HoME or other texts published later appear to refute it. I think this will serve to do a few things: it will “level the playing field” (not everyone has read the HoME, and some haven’t even read The Silm), it will allow for wider participation for that reason, and part of the goal of this project is to revitalize this forum and to draw in new people

i agree.

Let’s let everyone feel confident about sharing their views, Tolkien “scholar” and first time reader alike, without feeling like they’re going to be corrected for a “wrong” statement

Obviously a lot of what we discuss will have been discussed in other threads. That's okay. This is a separate project, and the other threads are for going into greater depth for a particular aspect of the books. Repitition is okay here.

[Butterbeer]

with the very best willed and friendliest of motives Val, i fail to see the point of a discussion thread about events in the LOTR, as outlined by the very project outlines themselves, that does not let, or allow or encourage mooters to discuss the relevant parts of the chapter???

firstly this is all friendly and encouraging .. it all (ok i'll give you the marrows ) stems from and relates to the issues of the passing of the grey company ... it fits all the outlines quoted above (ok, selectively, i admit)

but How on earth can we discuss the events, meanings and our thoughts and questions about the events of this chapter without, as Azalea said we could when defining the whole project, refering outside of the book when needed??? (PLUS some of this IS in the appendixes) ... also i understood it from the quote above and the original premise of the project to be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD AND DEFINED ... that:


"Obviously a lot of what we discuss will have been discussed in other threads. That's okay. This is a separate project, and the other threads are for going into greater depth for a particular aspect of the books. Repitition is okay here. "

so, really, is it not a) unessecary to... and B) against the spirit of the thing...

... to curtail discussion here?

we are not intending to go into any great depth on any other subject , just musing about the story, meanings and how's, why's and what's of what is brought up in this very chapter!

Now, i am very glad YOU are the mod here Valandil because you are intelligent, likeable, reasonable and what's more a good writer yourself ...

so ,really, surely we have by Azalea's guidelines and aims for this project not only the right (which cannot be doubted) but also the strength (which, may be barely enough , and prove to be somewhat tougher than the batlle of Valandil's deep thought ) .... to discuss this and other things ...

very best, BB

oh and yes ..val ... i'd like to see YOU reply more in here too! (though on different lines from above - obviously! )

[Valandil]

BB - I certainly don't want to squelch discussion, but I can assure you that one of azalea's objectives was that the discussion for each chapter(s) remain on what happened in that chapter - or before, but not after - and not drawing from various other sources. The idea was to not intimidate the Tolkien novice, but to allow them to feel free to venture an opinion, without having all kinds of things thrown back in response from texts they had never heard of - rather than from the chapter under discussion.

There are a lot of you folks who know a lot around here, after all.

So - my comment was only in reference to Serenoli's mention of the Ban of Men and what befell Numenor - and your response to it and mention of Angmar.

And of course, you're certainly free to discuss those things. One great hope had been that the discussion starting in these chapters would launch new threads that would take the discussion deeper and COULD include those other sources (whether in LOTR forum, Silmarillion forum or Middle Earth forum). So go start a thread on it!

We want to keep these threads more focused though - on the material presented in that chapter, or to date in the chapters previously covered.

Unfortunately, azalea doesn't make it around as much, but if you're still uncertain, you're free to go ahead and PM her - and steer her this way to see if I have accurately captured her intent.

[Gordis]

You are both right and wrong, Val, I think.

Certainly, every thread should better stay on topic, who argues that. And the Ban of the Valar and the fate of Ar-Pharazon have very remote connection with the chapter in question.

The problem is that few people now venture into the Books forum. There has not been a real animated discussion for quite some time. It has become dull here, hasn't it? So, every lively discussion, like in this thread, should be encouraged. Like a wise Ent, careful not to stunt the delicate green growth, you better wait and observe and then - OOPS - you take the scissors and split the thread.

I know, I know, Val, splitting threads is such a hard work!

[Butterbeer]

I agree gor .. just feels like it's pointless coming here now ..we can't discuss the lord of the rings (in the main) in the lord of the rings discussion project thread for god's sake!

plus i am prepared to argue, that if you look at the quotes from azalea there is plenty of project guidelines that support both our aims of ACTUALLY having some discussion and that we break no rules ...

Azalea: Discussion project official guidelines:

Certainly you may mention ties to the Silmarillion in discussing the chapters. Also, interesting factoids about the life of Tolkien are welcome

it will allow for wider participation for that reason, and part of the goal of this project is to revitalize this forum and to draw in new people,

and part of the goal of this project is to revitalize this forum and to draw in new people

Obviously a lot of what we discuss will have been discussed in other threads. That's okay. This is a separate project, and the other threads are for going into greater depth for a particular aspect of the books. Repitition is okay here.

one project to bring them all ... and in the Lightness bind them... ....

isn't that partly the point?

you want hundreds of watered down tiny threads that no one can keep up with about every little thing that springs directly from a chapter discussion????

may i politely ask you to reconsider this Val?

[Valandil]

Here is that chunk of Azalea's guidelines in full. If you want to see more, you can read through her opening post on the Discussion Project Thread itself.

My own emphases added:

Originally Posted by azalea

Finally, I’d like to say a word about “canon,” for the purposes of our discussion. This may be controversial, but I think it is in the best interest of the project to establish this guideline. Certainly you may mention ties to the Silmarillion in discussing the chapters. Also, interesting factoids about the life of Tolkien are welcome (pertinent quotes from Letters, etc.), to add to the discussion of this or that part or aspect of the story. But I’d like to make this a discussion of The Lord of the Rings as a discreet, stand-alone work (although it arguably is not), as if we are reading it when it first came out. I think pulling in info from the greater mythology FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS PROJECT will muddy the waters too much (obviously I’m not talking about any other threads in this forum). Let’s try just for these threads to say that the material contained in the text is canonical, whether or not HoME or other texts published later appear to refute it. I think this will serve to do a few things: it will “level the playing field” (not everyone has read the HoME, and some haven’t even read The Silm), it will allow for wider participation for that reason, and part of the goal of this project is to revitalize this forum and to draw in new people, or people who heretofore have been shy about participating in the discussions. Let’s let everyone feel confident about sharing their views, Tolkien “scholar” and first time reader alike, without feeling like they’re going to be corrected for a “wrong” statement. Of course, feel free to argue and bicker about stuff like we always do (J), but don’t make it an argument based on ME info that can’t be gotten from the LotR text itself. I hope this decision doesn’t dampen anyone’s enthusiasm for participating in the project, but please know that I’m doing this so that as many people as possible will be able to fully be a part of this, and feel confident in doing so. Plus, I want this to be more a discussion of the work itself, and not of the mythology. Sometimes bringing to much extraneous stuff in detracts from the story.

So... please let's get back to discussing what's in this chapter, here in this thread. You're certainly welcome to start or revive threads on these other topics that come to mind - and I think that would have an even MORE positive impact on the Tolkien forums than trying to cover all sorts of ground in this thread. But in this thread, and these other threads like it, please stay on topic.

[Butterbeer]

well as i see it val, it's 50-50 really thats what my accurate and genuine perception is .... and i have read ALL the opening post

i did say before that my stuff was admittedly selective ...

but look at azalea's outlines and my points and yours are pretty 50-50 ... but look at the whole piece and i do rather get the strong impression she is saying look you can add stuff and do feel free to wander off to subjects that come up a bit in the course of discussion of that chapter , even if it briefly goes over ground of another thread ... because i want this project to be friendly, encouraging and to to enable more discussion of the book and in the book forum in general ... sure she asks us to not go too far off the path nor too often .... but we haven't .. and do not intend to ...

that to me is the spirit it is intended in ...

but for me, currently it just seems we cannot discuss anything about the LOTR books in the LOTR book discussion project????


what is and what isn't off topic?

anything in a particular chapter that relates to one before or after ? That frankly is impossible ..it is a book ... it tells a story ..how can we isolate a chapter from the previous one or not look at the effects this chapter has on in the story?? How would we even know who the characters are?? or what they are doing??

if you take it that far ... how can we discuss anything??? it all relates to and affects previous and later chapters!


i just think it goes against the spirit of what azalea wrote ... in terms of the law of it (as it were) i still think it 50-50 at best ...

but i do not wish to argue with you ... if you do not wish us to discuss LOTR and the impact of events from the chapter and our thoughts on it or if things written clearly in the LOTR appendixes are now out of bounds, then what can we do?

I think we just all enjoyed having a discussion ... this obviously is in error.

i must say, though it really does suprise me this stance ... but what can we all do ?

perhaps you could itemise specifically what is allowable and the rigid limits within that given approved list?

[Earniel]

Actually, I'm with Valandil on this one. While I certainly think we should be able to take elements outside the LoTR books into account in this discussion, they should not be the center of the thread (they rightfully so deserve their own threads). I think, and I see it in the guidelines that azalea laid down also, that the current LoTR-chapter should still remain the main focus of each chapter-thread.

It is not because the book forum has little traffic now that we should concentrate all topics we want to discuss into the few currently active threads.

On a more personal note I've found it very enjoyable that the seperate chapter-discussions allow to focus on details from the chapters that would otherwise have gone unnoticed between the bigger themes and events of Tolkien's whole scope, such as the drowning of Numenor and the power of vows.

Now, on with the discussion, I'd say. (And I better go read it to be able to catch up and actually participate. )

Originally Posted by Gordis

Like a wise Ent, careful not to stunt the delicate green growth, you better wait and observe and then - OOPS - you take the scissors and split the thread.

Actually, no. As a wise Ent-wife I want to cultivate a race of mooters in my gardens that take the initiative to take the discussion to the proper thread instead of waiting for the mod-team to sort out the entangled greens. (At which I'll probably get the reply: No wonder you Ent-wives were exterminated... )

[Butterbeer]

ok ...fine but what percentage of this whole thread is not specifically on the main 2 chapters here?

2% ...3%?? possibly a max of 4%??

so ..in this very chapter we learn of the whole oath breaking scenes ...yet we cannot discuss it????

the power of vows is a central Part of the whole chapter!!!!! else there would be no dead or passing of the grey company!

yours very confused,

BB