Discussion Thread Number 4 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Lotesse]

Yeah, what BB said.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

"Do not let one word lead to conclusions"

but they do ... surely you as the writer should write it so that if that is not your intent, then they don't ...

maybe the little boy that lives down the lane is an expert nazgul hunter? ...

maybe little bo peep will end up marrying the high king?

maybe ... maybe ...

but it rather blows the whole thing apart doesn't it?

maybe godzilla will turn up?

the point is we choose not to write such stuff ... i just feel udu it goes far too far ..potentially unbalancing the whole situation ...

for him to be able to get the depth of detail and information etc that you purport him to have means the whole city is gossiping about unusual behaviour and dark deeds ... that everything in watched everywhere and that basically it is no longer Tharbad but the stepford style tharbad city of spies ...

since it was on the old page, thought I'd re-quote BB here...

[Gordis]

What has gotten into you, BB and Lotesse?
So no one can hiss without being declared a nazgul?
What, no one was going to discuss Lilly's dances at the jeweller's and her fits at the Swan?
Does the Chancellor have no spies at the Swan??
At the Herring?

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Well, the "millions" was my way of exaggerating to make a point. I do that a lot. No, I love a spy network in Tharbad, absolutely - what's not to love? Just not billions of them, I guess.

you having a larf, or what???

well i don't i think its bloody silly, COMPLETELY changes the whole structure of the City, the game, the RPG and the whole world as we know it ... WITHOUT any consultation - WHATSOEVER ...


SO .. these people that may have wandered past lilly in the street, suddenly know her name and who is she is???

the maid nows talks from her death bed? every inn is full of Nazgul spies ..every last one he can trust ..because they work for money???

people have supersonic hearing??

they can see through closed curtains??

everyone in tharbad is now talking about the deeds of orrodel?

who are these people gossiping aboutpeople they do not know the names of???

how did the maid talk?????

[Lotesse]

Playing Devil's advocate, I say, So What if Lady Lilaenwen appears to be a slut, what's that gonna do to us Nazgul, is it gonna kill us all just because some of us have a slightly shady rep around town? I say, screw 'em! Let 'em gossip their stupid tiny puny little mortal pathetic gobs off. Sticks and stones, my friends; sticks and stones.

That is all.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

you having a larf, or what???

well i don't i think its bloody silly, COMPLETELY changes the whole structure of the City, the game, the RPG and the whole world as we know it ... WITHOUT any consultation - WHATSOEVER ...


SO .. these people that may have wandered past lilly in the street, suddenly know her name and who is she is???

the maid nows talks from her death bed? every inn is full of Nazgul spies ..every last one he can trust ..because they work for money???

people have supersonic hearing??

they can see through closed curtains??

everyone in tharbad is now talking about the deeds of orrodel?

who are these people gossiping aboutpeople they do not know the names of???

how did the maid talk?????

And THEN, playing the other Devil's advocate, again let me concur with this what BB wrote here.

[Gordis]

I don't think Lotesse that repeating BB's long and hardly well thought out posts helps a lot.
You better tell EXACTLY what you want changed, BB and Lotesse.
1.2.3.4.
I am sick of this!

[Butterbeer]

oh gossip is one thing ....

suddendly the rpg is turned on its head with spies absolutely everywhere ..

it's the whole freakin' point about valandil's talking sword all over again ....

"oh i can just see this or that or know this or that ...."
bloody pointless continuing ...

it's stupid ...

omnipotence

... ok ... you wanna spring a spy master and a whole hoard of a detailed extensive network of spies into the game and on all the other rpgers at this point willy nilly .... i'll have Eru turn up in disguise ... or introduce nuclear radar guns ...

word on the street is one thing ... hearing some gossip is another ..the level of detail and the people you would need in all these places .. to know this ... plus TOTALLY all the orrodel stuff is bizarre, ludriocus and just plain unbelivable ...

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am sick of this!

me too ..

goodbye.

[Lotesse]

The point about gossip & all the spies and gossip-related spying, is what I'd like changed, Gordis. The reason why I echoed BB is because I happen to concur with the things he's pointing out. Before we know it, then King val and all the elves will have spies by the billions too, and then what?

[The last sane person]

BB, you best not be leaving us! Really now...this is getting silly.

[Lotesse]

He's not leaving, he's just cooling down, 'cause as you can see, it's gettin' a little hot around here... but BB has excellent points, he really does, and it IS a big deal. The omnipotence factor. I hate it. It's NOT silly.

[The last sane person]

That's what I meant, the omnipotent factor is getting a bit silly! Overly used! Meh!

I think I might be turning into a narcolept-*falls asleep*

[Gordis]

OK, let us push emotions aside and analyse peacefully.

Suppose the Chancellor has spies 1.at the Red Herring, 2.at the Swan and in the taverns at the dock, like the Rotting Cod. Is it impossible?
Probably he has a spy in the Ladies Sewing Circle.

Does it take millions of spies? I say it takes about 10-12.
Is it OMNIPOTENCE?

Now back to Udu's post.

"Chancellor," he said, "there has been a bit of gossip going about, a scandal almost. It has been reported to me that the sister of Professor Galadannun, the Lady Lilaenwen, is quite the subject of talk among all the gossips from the highest borne lady to the lowest knave in the Rotten Cod Tavern. The talk is not good, Chancellor," Sapthân said, hoping to impress the other man with his knowledge of the doings of the town."

The "highest borne ladies", like MM’s, certainly discuss Lilly with their acquaintances. Lowest knaves have seen her in the Rotting Cod three days ago. The story at the Swan is fresh. And there Lilly told her name for EVERYONE to hear. So, taking into account that Sapthan is slightly exaggerating, all the news could have found his way to him.

Well, I believe, considering your reaction, Udu might agree to tone it down a little.

"Warming up to his topic, Sapthân said eagerly, "It is told by some that the Lady Lilaenwen, right in the jewelry shop on the Street of Hours, performed a most brazen exotic dance!"

The talk comes from MM’s and from the shopkeeper telling the story around from his POV.

" "That is not all," he said excitedly. "She was showing affection publicly to that new professor, Maethor, I believe is his name. You know no decent lady behaves that way in the view of everyone. Scandalous, shameful, the talebearers are saying!"
Lilly was hugged Maethor in the street. Well, this bit is not too important. Probably it might remain overlooked, if Udu agreed. It is redundant anyway.

"Yes," he hissed happily. "Lady Lilaenwen was most affectionate to Professor Maethor in the Singing Swan Inn. She is quite a little number, I hear, fond of wearing quite revealing gowns," Then, I could hardly believe my ears when I heard this, Professor Maethor poured several bottles of wine right down her throat!


That was clear and plain to everyone within hearing in the Swan.And again she said her mane. And the amount of wine that was poured down her throat was impressive.

"For that matter, down at the Rotten Cod, the wags say that Professor Maethor himself is quite the sot. It simply seems strange for the Lady Lilaenwen and Professor Maethor to be on such... intimate terms, when I understand he arrived in the city only yesterday."

About "intimate terms is a conclusion Sapthan made himself.

"Nothing much," he said, anticipating this last bit of information. "It is said that there are wild doings at Orrodel, parties all night, strange noises, dark things, some say. Then there was an unpleasant situation involving Professor Galadannun some shouting at some servant or other who was being dismissed.

Well, that part is an exaggeration. Mahtaliel has sertainly said about "noise at night" but Khamul has not shouted, finally.
I would have left that part out.

So, that is all there is!

So what do you think?
And PLEASE, could we just discuss it in peace without hysterics and undue generalisations?

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

Another flare-up? And we had been doing so well...

However, now that I've read the posts in question I do see the point Lotesse and BB are trying to make.

Gordis, I think the key word that makes your idea about the Chancellor having spies working for him distasteful is the word 'vast'. It does seem to imply that his spies are everywhere, which is a bit problematic if the rest of us are to get anything done. Perhaps you could describe his network in more specific terms, to make it clear that there are some parts of the city that he doesn't bother spying on and maybe one or two places that he hasn't been able to get a spy close enough to. I do agree that it makes sense for the ML to have a network of spies. It's in character and he has the necessary power, but for a town the size of Tharbad, I don't think it would be a 'vast' network.

Lotesse I don't think you have to worry about the elves or Val aquiring a similarily vast network. In realistic terms though:
It is likely that Val or one of his councilors could have a few people employed to keep an eye out for dangers, that's simply common sense for his character.
As for the elves... Rian and her lot have other buisness; and unless I'm very much mistaken, Earniel's character came to Tharbad to, in effect, spy things out herself.
Mahtaliel does not have a network of spies. I promise you that. She gets her information either by observing on her own or by talking with friends, coworkers, etc, just like any other person.

I agree that gossip is highly annoying, but it is an effective way of getting information to characters in bits and pieces at a time, and that sort of thing is somewhat necessary in this type of story. To make it more straightforward would unfortunately make the story move towards the climax far too quickly.

Hope that helped.

[Lotesse]

I'd say get rid of the "intimate terms" bit, and the last bit about Orrodel. That'll definitely help a bit. All the spies, well, of course it seems likely that ML would employ spies, but not gads of them. The thing about Melwen really bugs me, too. There is no way on middle-earth Melwen spoke. She got offed for a reason, to prevent such things from happening, as I already pointed out earlier..

[Lotesse]

Ack! We double-posted, Lady M. Yes, that does help, what you said!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

Gordis, I think the key word that makes your idea about the Chancellor having spies working for him distasteful is the word 'vast'. It does seem to imply that his spies are everywhere, which is a bit problematic if the rest of us are to get anything done. Perhaps you could describe his network in more specific terms, to make it clear that there are some parts of the city that he doesn't bother spying on and maybe one or two places that he hasn't been able to get a spy close enough to. I do agree that it makes sense for the ML to have a network of spies. It's in character and he has the necessary power, but for a town the size of Tharbad, I don't think it would be a 'vast' network.

LMM, I appreciate your calm and realistic approach. Sure, I will take away "vast" if it may help. But RH, Swan and Rotting Cod and similar riverside inns should have spies! One of the servants in the Governor's Palace could be a spy. It makes sense.

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

It is likely that Val or one of his councilors could have a few people employed to keep an eye out for dangers, that's simply common sense for his character.

YES, I am sure Oreturion also has spies, or will set them in the University, if he gets suspicious. It is LIFE.

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

I agree that gossip is highly annoying, but it is an effective way of getting information to characters in bits and pieces at a time, and that sort of thing is somewhat necessary in this type of story. To make it more straightforward would unfortunately make the story move towards the climax far too quickly.

Hope that helped.

Yes it did, thanx

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I'd say get rid of the "intimate terms" bit, and the last bit about Orrodel. That'll definitely help a bit. All the spies, well, of course it seems likely that ML would employ spies, but not gads of them.

It makes sense and could help. After all, there was no scandal in Orrodel, so Sapthan is exaggerating, and therefore gives a wrong info.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

The thing about Melwen really bugs me, too. There is no way on middle-earth Melwen spoke. She got offed for a reason, to prevent such things from happening, as I already pointed out earlier..

Lotesse, there is not a SINGLE word about Melwen in Udu's post. Sapthan must have reported it earlier, in the morning, as a suicide.

No, she had no possibility to talk. She was silenced in time.

[Lotesse]

o.k. cool, but then why did Udu say this?

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

Maybe the dead maid talked a lot before she was silenced.