![]() |
![]() |
#361 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Poor old Lief! So young and idealistic. Bless.
You know, if you did a find and replace on "God bothering" with "socialism" you'd probably have me aged about 18... |
![]() |
![]() |
#362 | ||
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
Quote:
Similarly, while yes, the humanists believed their principles to be compatible with Christianity, as I would say most learning is, they also began to consider the value of tolerance of other faiths AS WELL. See for example Sir Thomas More's Utopia, where the citizens admit any religion that accepts certain points (they really don't like atheists). Tolerance did not spring out of intolerance fully formed like Athena from the brow of Zeus. It proceeded by slow steps, as people recognized the value of allowing others freedom of speech, conscience, and action. We can see a step with More, Erasmus, and the northern humanists around 1500; another in the 1500s with Montaigne; another in the 1600s with Locke; and so on through to modern times. Even by the 1600s the main objection to atheists was simply that you could not trust their oaths, as they had nothing to swear by, not that they were inherently worse than other people (see for example Locke's pamphlet on toleration). Would you not believe BJ's promise just because he's an atheist? Religious toleration grew by small steps, beginning, as sis rightly says, in the Renaissance; and I'm only an expert on England, so I can't speak to other places where it may have progressed more or less rapidly, but in England at any rate it seems to have been hotly debated at every turn, and yet never stopped. I'm proud to live in a country in which, for example, you can tell us all that you don't believe in the fundamental basis of the nation and, while you will get an argument, the state need take no part. It is only by such discourse that we can arrive at the truths of reason; for revelation without reason is a waste of one of God's gifts. Oh, and have you ever looked at the Biblical Israel you found your model on? It's citizens are constantly falling away from God. That's why we have the writings of the Prophets, because God had to berate them. I am actually not sure it was a more moral state, and it had the institutional advantage of having a central Temple as focus of religion, which I assume your Christian state would not have, seeing as sacrifice dropped out of Christianity. And then there's this: Quote:
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. Last edited by Count Comfect : 05-22-2007 at 06:53 AM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#363 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
The "breakdown of the family" Date 1555, establishment of the Bridewell Workhouse in London. Juveniles found begging or loitering were sent to the workhouse to be leased out as convict workers. Elizabeth I presided over Poor Laws that indentured children (on behalf of the state) until 21. In 1601 more laws were passed to construct workhouses specifically for juveniles. This clearly represents a shift from what you would consider "traditional families" as the center of discipline of children to "the state" as the overall parent. In contrast, in England and across the pond, the Puritans had a different system. But they were REJECTING the system in place in England, and what they saw as the diminuation of Bible authority, and the failure of the Church of England to sufficiently differ itself from the Roman Catholic Church.. In fact, their first separation was in 1608, when they left England for Holland. In their colony in the New World, the father had complete jurisdiction over his household and the laws referenced the 10 commandments and other biblical sources. If you were a disobedient 16 year old son, you could be brought by your parents to the magistrate and be put to death. For English Puritans *When William Laud, an avowed Arminian, became Archbishop of Canterbury in 1633, the Church of England began to embrace beliefs abhorrent to Puritans: a focus on the individual's acceptance or rejection of grace; a toleration of diverse religious beliefs; and an acceptance of "high church" rituals and symbols was a breaking point. Go figure. But the Puritans were anomalous. They reacted against a pre-existing movement towards more open societies. *http://www.wsu.edu/~campbelld/amlit/purdef.htm
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#364 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
![]()
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#365 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
* Joins in the round of applause for CC*
(You a Bacon fan, then, CC?) Well, it makes a change from the cultivated cynicism or outright apathy you get elsewhere. Personally, I would like to see more "christian" values put into political action, not less. Meaning compassion, alleviating suffering, not killing each other, that sort of thing. Unfortunately it seem that the politicians who most overtly avow a christian perspective are furthest away from these values. Last edited by The Gaffer : 05-22-2007 at 09:37 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#366 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
![]() Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-22-2007 at 11:29 AM. |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
#367 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
I am going to close this thread for 24 hours.
You are almost all, without fail, being catty, rude, obnoxious, and generally acting like children. I respect many of you who are posting in this thread greatly as people, but please, take a look at what you're saying and ask yourself why you chose to phrase it that way. Is this really the tone you want to set for Entmoot? I said that I don't want personal attacks, and I meant it. I've warned you all before that I will close the thread, and I believe that it's time I do so, if only temporarily. Calm down, take a deep breath, and please refrain from doing this again ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#368 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
Posts: 6,433
|
Thread unlocked.
![]() Back to debating you monkeys! *cracks the whip* ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#369 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Rawr!
![]()
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
![]() |
![]() |
#370 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
*mutters* monkey, yourself. ![]()
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#371 | |||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Even if you could prove every last miracle attributed to Jesus, which you cannot, and which is too extraordinary a claim to verify through eyewitness testimony alone, all it proves is that Jesus had some extraordinary powers, and he claimed that they came from god. If I could fire lightning bolts from my eyes, and you were able to observe and verify my ability, then I claimed that this power was granted to me by the ancient Greek god Zeus, would this be proof that Zeus does indeed exist? Quote:
All I'm saying is that rule by christian theocracies, more or less, had it's time and failed. Some parts survived, just as some of the better parts of pre-christian civilizations survive. It's not idealistic, it's simple reality. Bad forms of government cease to thrive over the longterm. No established democracy has ever fallen back into theocratic rule, and I don't think they ever will, even though a minority pushes for such from time to time. Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
#372 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
|
Quote:
A parent of a somewhat young family ![]()
__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#373 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]() Quote:
and with many a good, reasonable, and fair mooter involved ... and you call us monkeys??? ![]() Is this your idea of the moot, then? I have a fair amount of respect for you Tessar - and personally wish you well - but that is one huge insult to the intelligent and good meaning folk who have enlightened and debated on this interesting subject, from all viewpoints. Shame on you for that! Monkeys???? I ask you politely, to rephrase that, and sincerely too. best, BB |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#374 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
|
Yeah, Tessar, how dare you to jokingly call our good moot-members monkeys?!
When everybody knows it should at least be apes. ![]() And maybe throw in a common ancestor to keep everybody happy. ![]() *scratches under arm and goes off in search of a banana* Anyway, R*an, if you're reading this, I've looked into this immaculate conception-virgin birth thing we discussed a while back in the science thread. Still interested in what I found?
__________________
We are not things. |
![]() |
![]() |
#375 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
... correct me if i am wrong ..but you are just asking to be called a Belgian Ape?
![]() heh! happy to oblige! *BB bows* ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#376 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
...xx |
![]() |
![]() |
#377 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#378 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
|
really Ri
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#379 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]()
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#380 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
But really, all one has to do is prove a handful of those miracles actually happened to have an impressive case. The disciples' witnessing the ascension of Christ into heaven will do. There are many evidences in addition to the eyewitnesses, though. Quote:
Quote:
One could argue that there was always corruption, I suppose, but there's always some level of corruption in any government. And Greece certainly was a democracy. Quote:
And it's frequent for societies to change for the worse over time. That has been observed countless times. They frequently have dropped the better aspects of their culture and taken up worse things. Take the spread of ideologies such as those of the Toltecs, for example. Those replaced a great swath of more peaceful and sophisticated civilizations, absorbing some, but destroying a lot and replacing it in the end with a truly barbarous form of government. The Assyrians wiped out plenty of governments that weren't nearly as ruthless as theirs was. So did the Aztecs. So did Hitler. Russia, under the USSR, seized control of many countries and imposed a ruthless oligarchy on them that stripped them to the bone financially. Corruption from within countries also often happens. Just look at the Byzantine Empire. Or the Roman Empire. Or the British Empire. There are countless examples of this. Quote:
![]() ![]() Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Science | ayarella | General Messages | 804 | 04-13-2012 09:05 PM |
muslims PART 2 | Spock | General Messages | 805 | 02-03-2011 03:16 AM |
Theological Opinions | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 992 | 02-10-2006 04:15 PM |
REAL debate thread for RELIGION | Ruinel | General Messages | 1439 | 04-01-2005 02:47 PM |
Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread | Rían | General Messages | 2289 | 01-08-2004 02:31 AM |