10-26-2008, 08:16 PM | #361 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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There is a dignity which is inherent to human life, regardless of its circumstances. That dignity can only be snuffed out by killing a person, and it is that dignity which I am talking about. As being the most fundamental dignity, and that upon which any other is built, I regard it as the most important.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
10-26-2008, 08:19 PM | #362 |
Elf Lord
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Not seeing it, Gwai. What is dignified about being alive, as opposed to dead?
Dignity may be an intrinsic quality of some people, but surely not all. And i know people who have preserved their dignity past death, as well. No equivalence. I like Jon's cartoon.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-27-2008, 09:57 AM | #363 |
Elf Lord
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Great cartoon, JS!!!
SACA, there was a culture of power which held that fundamental dignity did not exist for those designated sub-humans. The status of birth or personhood was not raised at all because the members of the subclass were all automatically deprived of their humanity. They were designated life not worth living and a drain on society. So these volk were taken out of the institutions and living spaces accorded them hitherto and decimated in a systematic fashion that allowed the further development and perfection of the implementation of the methods of mass removal of the unfit. These techniques were later applied to ethnic groups en masse. Of course, this was justified on the contention:"Dignity may be an intrinsic quality of some people, but surely not all." Given the Thucydian need to repeat history when one is unaware of it (and apparently when one is very aware of it!), would you like to justify how and on what grounds you propose to distinguish dignity amongst those who possess it those who surely do not?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-27-2008, 10:41 AM | #364 |
Elf Lord
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Inked, I don't "propose to distinguish dignity..."
I'm making an observation. You can't do science without observation, but I'm not even claiming to do science. I'm just observing that "dignity", qua "dignity" is not a defining characteristic of the human condition. It is not, therefore, relevent to Gwai's argument. Some of the questions here seems to be "what are the essential elements of life?" and "what are the essential elements of human life" and "what are the dangers to society of ending a life" and "under what circumstances would society consider the benefits of ending a life were greater than the dangers." Follow me? So, for example, If you say, "Human life always outranks animal life." then you might say, "Punishing an individual for burning a dog alive is stupid. It's just a dog." Most people are more nuanced about it. They say, "Eating a cow is alright...it's just a cow, but I never had a cow as a pet." As far as abortion goes, I can identify several potential areas of harm, some societal, and some individual. Those would include "Harm to the mother as a result of the abortion" "Harm to society as the result of abortion" (loss of the potential citizen), "Harm to the potential citizen directly." "Harm to the mother as a result of NOT having the abortion", "Harm to the society as a result of not permitting the abortion" "Harm to the potential citizen as a result of not having the abortion." Gwai's suggestion was intended to establish that death diminishes the amount of dignity available to the society, and that therefore society loses everytime there is a death. I don't think his assertion proves the case, because I've known, personally, a number of instances where there was no coorellation between life and dignity or between death and loss of dignity. So, his math was life=dignity ~~~ death=loss of dignity I see examples where the relationship between life or death and dignity = n and, therefore, I reject his axiom.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-27-2008, 01:46 PM | #365 |
Quasi Evil
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10-28-2008, 09:15 AM | #366 |
Elf Lord
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SACA,
I don't think that was the argument made at all. Every human life has innate dignity (because made in the image of God). Careless killing for whatever reason diminishes the killer, defacing the image. Persons who so do impair the dignity of human life or deny it. The persons so killed and their killers are deprived of dignity inherent in them. All humanity suffers. You seem to be treating it as a quantitative argument of some sort. Of course, if there is not inherent human dignity, "there is only power and those afraid to use it." Have a preference?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-28-2008 at 09:16 AM. Reason: speilin' |
10-28-2008, 01:05 PM | #367 |
Elf Lord
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Why would 'innate dignity" be related to "made in the image of God"? You're cherry picking again.
God would be described as having several innate characteristics. Humans would be described as having several innate characteristics, some of which might overlap with God or each other, and some of which would not. For example, you would look at a room full of people and say, "Some of these people are Saved." while a Christian Universalist would look at the same group and say "All of these people are Saved." But neither of you would apply the word "Saved" to God. Yet, all would be "made in the image of God." "Saved" would not be a characteristic shared by all, however. I do not believe that "innate dignity" is a defining characteristic of the human condition, anymore than I believe eye color is. So this is all by the by, when we're attempting to establish what societal harm "not being born" represents. There are a number of ways someone might not be born, including celebacy and birth control. Are all those heinous as well?
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-31-2008, 02:59 AM | #368 | |
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Quote:
Only when it was happening to Israel- when the Israelites were doing it to others, both God and his followers were enthusiastically in favour.
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11-03-2008, 01:24 AM | #369 |
Elf Lord
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Citation(s) and context for that, GM, please.
SACA, every person is made in the image of God, male and female. Not cherry-picking at all. A bold, flat-out assertion.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-03-2008, 10:48 AM | #370 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I have not contested that every person is made in the image of God during this debate. I have challenged the notion of "inherent human dignity" as applied to this question. Are you suggesting that one of the characteristics of God is "inherent human dignity"? If not, then that is not one of the "made in the image of" characteristics.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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11-03-2008, 05:47 PM | #371 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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11-03-2008, 08:18 PM | #372 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The money that would be saved by killing prisoners would not be spent on saving other lives. It would go to some budget or other, but in the vast majority of cases not to actual preservation of life. So, unless there's something I don't know about the allocation of funds after an execution, what you say would only be true rarely, and then only by chance.
Sorry, sis, I didn't see your post. I'm rather surprised you'd say that. Quote:
But I am quite surprised that you would deny that there is inherent value in human life. Does value only come from exterior sources? Is there no worth in a person, merely because they are a person? I say that there is worth in a person, in even an animal, a plant, or an inanimate object, solely by virtue of the fact that they exist. For the record, I'm not on abortion. I've wandered off topic onto Capital Punishment. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-03-2008, 08:50 PM | #373 |
Elf Lord
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I don't know what other people's answers are.
I know, of course, what the answer is. You seem to know a lot of things, for certain. You know the spirit does not survive death. You know live people can't communicate with people who are no longer alive, and vice versa. You know that dignity=value=dignity, which I hadn't seen expressed yet, here in this thread. You know that one method of not being born is more significant than any other method of not being born. You know that the value of 'life' extends, apparently, to an animal, a plant, and an inanimate object. I don't know any of these things. That's why I have conversations.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
11-03-2008, 09:05 PM | #374 | |||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-03-2008, 09:29 PM | #375 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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That's really a sticking point, when it's not a shared hypothesis. Quote:
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These are tough questions, Gwai.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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11-03-2008, 09:40 PM | #376 | |
Elf Lord
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Inherent human dignity is certainly part of the Godhead since God contains and surpasses the All-that-is. And, from a strictly JudeoChristian worldview, the entirety of existence has whatever dignity it may be said to possess by virtue of its creation and in its proper degree. So, you have understood what I said in your negation of it. Are we clearer now? Within that Creation different entities differ in the degree with which they reflect that inherent dignity accorded to them. Humanity is the apex and most like God because directly in His image. Therefore, save the humans from fertilization onward! This provides a rational ground for preserving lives and the administration of justice: humanity is made in God's image. And on reading the subsequent posts, I see I have apparently restated what GW has. Just let me comment that when the Science Channel or Discovery Channel or History Channel show ultrasounds of in utero animals they always refer to it as THE ANIMAL IN STUDY. I wonder why they don't talk about potential elephants or horses, for instance, instead of elephants and horses. It constantly amazes me that in all the animal kingdom save humans we acknowledge reality BANG! from the moment of fertilization onward - even on Meerkat Manor!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-03-2008, 10:07 PM | #377 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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11-04-2008, 03:44 PM | #378 | ||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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11-04-2008, 06:51 PM | #379 |
Elf Lord
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Now whose being rhetorically obtuse, SACA?
Sperm = one-half chromosomal complement Egg = one-half chromosomal complement Sperm + Egg = full chromosomal complement Sperm not a person Egg not a person Full chromosomal complement = a person Now, just for funsies, substitute your favorite animal in front of either and you can get biology 101 to your heart's content, but you won't get a person, you'll just get the animal. It's only with humans that you get persons. Hope that helps. You won't need cable for that!!!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-21-2009, 10:19 PM | #380 |
Elf Lord
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On the stem-cell issue, as I understand it the situation is that in-vitro fertilization necessarily creates excess embryos - it's a complicated process, you can't be sure which ones will be viable, the rejection rate for even viable embryos is high- so the prospective parents end up with many more embryos (about 20 extra?) than they need, which are frozen for possible later use. There are what, about 400,000 of them in the US alone.
In most cases, these embryos end up being destroyed after the couple decide they no longer want them ( or, if you prefer, these babies are murdered). One proposed alternative is "snowflake babies"; implantation of these embryos in women who can't get pregnant normally. Problems with that are a)prospective "adopters": there aren't that many women out there; most couples would like to have at least one of the partners as a biological parent. b) prospective donors: the great majority of couples who undergo in-vitro fertilization do not want to give their embryos away to strangers- they would rather dispose of them or even have them used for stem-cell research. c) even the "snowflake baby" process ends up destroying large numbers of the embryos used; there's about a 90% failure rate. I recall reading somewhere that to produce the child sitting next to Bush in his press conference required thirteen embryos before they achieved success. As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, they are opposed to the "snowflake baby" process even if it uses embryos that are already fertilized and frozen, and believe it should be made illegal: "The proposal that these embryos could be put at the disposal of infertile couples as a treatment for infertility is not ethically acceptable for the same reasons which make artificial heterologous procreation illicit as well as any form of surrogate motherhood;38 this practice would also lead to other problems of a medical, psychological and legal nature. It has also been proposed, solely in order to allow human beings to be born who are otherwise condemned to destruction, that there could be a form of “prenatal adoption”. This proposal, praiseworthy with regard to the intention of respecting and defending human life, presents however various problems not dissimilar to those mentioned above. All things considered, it needs to be recognized that the thousands of abandoned embryos represent a situation of injustice which in fact cannot be resolved. Therefore John Paul II made an “appeal to the conscience of the world’s scientific authorities and in particular to doctors, that the production of human embryos be halted, taking into account that there seems to be no morally licit solution regarding the human destiny of the thousands and thousands of ‘frozen’ embryos which are and remain the subjects of essential rights and should therefore be protected by law as human persons”.39 " Dignitas Personae http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/dec/08121201.html Presumably, the thousands and thousands of frozen embryos must be maintained in that state in perpetuity- or at least till the Second Coming. So if you do believe that these embryos are human beings, then it seems that the only morally acceptable position is that of the Catholic Church- ban in-vitro fertilization. However it appears that most of the politicians (like George Bush ) who come out against embryonic stem-cell experimentation don't take this position, because they know it's political suicide. Their position would appear to be that these embryos are actual human beings, but it's okay to murder them as long as you don't experiment with the remains. Actually the Bush position was even stranger- he said that these embryos are human beings but it's okay to kill them for experimental purposes as long as you do it with private or state government funding.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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