11-19-2005, 01:31 PM | #361 |
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I had an interesting idea today. What if a large group of scientists one day said:
"Let's rewrite the Bible and make room for some scientific observations!" And what if every library in Kansas had to throw out their old Bibles and replace them with the new ones? Boy would Christians protest! . So to all of you creationists out there, don't complain when you think people are overzealous when it comes to protecting the very definition of science - you would be equally concerned about preserving the Bible if it was in danger
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11-19-2005, 02:56 PM | #362 | |
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Second, the Bible does not and should not have "scientific observations". It is not a textbook. Fundamentalists who maintain a strict 7-day Creation view are looking at it the wrong way. So, the problem with your analogy is that science is very unlike the Bible. The analogy cannot and does not apply.
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11-19-2005, 03:29 PM | #363 |
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There is a difference between rewriting the definition of what science is and to rewrite science textbooks. But it's good that you agree that science should be "updateable" if new discoveries are made. However Intelligent Design is a dead-end and doesn't leave a door open for correcting earlier observations. If we decide that a supernatural being designed us it's the end of science right there, since we can't possibly obtain new observations that show us there isn't a designer.
[edit] Oh yes, my analogy was quite good
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11-19-2005, 03:49 PM | #364 | |
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11-19-2005, 04:33 PM | #365 | |
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I just like how you're kind and open-minded and intelligent and thoughtful and funny, too! I really appreciate your presence on this thread
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-20-2005 at 12:21 AM. |
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11-19-2005, 05:09 PM | #366 | |
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Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan) |
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11-19-2005, 05:21 PM | #367 | ||
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Intelligent design is a dead-end idea for science. As Nobel Prize winning physicist Eric Cornell said on the topic of intelligent design: Quote:
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11-20-2005, 12:19 AM | #368 | ||
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And again, that quote is, IMHO, just rather ignorant. ID does NOT say that by any means. That's TOTALLY off-base, and to my mind, shows that he didn't do any reading from those that think this area has promise. To me, it looks like he's only listening to the uber-evolutionists' scare tactics If you're interested in reading what people have to say on ID and who are researching it (where they will say NOTHING about "this is done by God's will" or whatever ) then I suggest the Discovery institute for a good start. It is a think-tank place that covers various issues like transportation, finance, and things like that, in addition to ID. There are religious people there, and non-religious people, too. ID is NOT just a "religious person" phenomenon, altho those against it would like that false idea to prevail. Follow the link I gave to Nurvi a few posts back. Most of the ID articles are on the right.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-20-2005, 02:06 AM | #369 |
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ID is nothing more than re-worked creationism. Why ID can never be considered a science is because it seeks truth on a supernatural (ie philosophical) level, instead of on a natural level. I don't understand why IDers don't get this fundamental flaw (in trying to pass off ID as a science). It is a PSEUDO-science at best. I note with interest that a lot of the creationists now seem to be removing themselves from that camp, and attempting to disassociate ID from that of creationism. Feh.
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11-20-2005, 03:13 AM | #370 |
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No, it does NOT seek truth on a supernatural level any more than SETI does It seeks to study observable things in NATURE for characteristics of design of a type that we can recognize. I think it's an interesting new field, and I'm angry that it's being squashed because of people's beliefs and fears. I worked in radar for many years, and have seen and heard signals, and you can TELL the difference between "noise" and an information-bearing signal. Have you actually read any info from the IDers, or do you just go off of articles critical of them? I'm severely disappointed in that article that was posted on the last page, and that comment by Eric Cornell. As I said before, that only shows that they do NOT go off of primary-source material.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-20-2005, 04:05 AM | #371 | |
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Really?
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11-20-2005, 04:34 AM | #372 | ||
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Well, to be fair, Wikipedia does have the odd mistake.
However, doesn't ID assert that there is an intelligent designer? How would this designer not be God, or some other supernatural being? EDIT: I did go to discovery.org R*an. I read (okay, skimmed, but thouroughlly) Definitions of State Science Standards and Intelligent Design: Professors discuss Teaching the Controversial Subject. I quoted bits and made a few comments in post #355. EDIT2: I can't really find any ideas behind Cascadia. It appears to be about transportation, and generally makes no sense at all.
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11-20-2005, 09:20 AM | #373 | |
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Cornell used the words "God's will" but the point is that if we say that life is designed, it implies that the supernatural exists (because face it, nothing but a supernatural entity can have the power to design all life on earth).
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11-20-2005, 11:32 AM | #374 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-20-2005, 05:02 PM | #375 |
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I looked to Google for concrete examples of ID, signs of ID and evidence for ID. To my surprise I didn't find much at all. Even though it's not surprising that no peer-reviewed scientific journal wants to publish ID studies (because of their being considered substandard), there should IMO still be websites where IDists can upload their studies. However most ID websites out there seem to focus on the ongoing debate about the status of ID and discuss evolution and its potential flaws. Websites that actually present the discoveries of IDists seem rare. I found a couple, but the studies were poorly written and claimed it is indesputably God who is the designer.
Could someone post a link to a site that present ID studies in a scientific manner? That is, in the form of a scientific publication and not an argumentative essay - neither God nor flaws in the theory of evolution should be used as arguments if the publication is to be scientific, only objective observations should be presented. havethat has information about the findings of IDists with arguments as to why these findings are signs of intelligence? Objective arguments please (that is, God or evolution shouldn't be brought forth as arguments for or against the findings). I'm sorry if such a link has already been posted before. [edit] I did visit Discovery.org but I couldn't find much there either. Most articles there also seem to focus on questioning Darwin rather than to defend the theories that this and that biological structure is designed.
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11-20-2005, 09:56 PM | #376 | ||
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R*an's arguments are probably the most well-thought out. You should make a website R*! I'll help you code it if you want to. (Though you can probably do that.) I know basic HTML anyway.
Jonathan, I really liked your "Let's change the Bible to allow for scientific observations" scenario. What a creative way to think about the situation! Needless to say, if someone was attempting to change the Bible to allow for science, I'd be pissed. Similairly, science should not bend to accomadate religion. (New findings yes, religion no.)
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11-21-2005, 12:41 PM | #377 | |
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seti tries to look for intelligence like ours, or like we think we may develop into one day... ID looks to a cause that is simply unprecedented in the observable world also, science looks for the simplest explanations... look at the theories of star formation... it is possible a supernatural being created the sun... it is also conceivable that an advanced alien race created it... but science asks: is it possible that stars can form just by the elements and forces we observe today in the universe? that's what current theory reflects... and take special note that i asked "is it possible" and not "is it the truth" the rest is fine to speculate on... a grand designer, aliens, etc... but it is closer to philosophy (and exercise of the human mind), than science (an excercise of the human mind and senses)
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11-21-2005, 02:45 PM | #378 | ||||
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SCIENCE is about seeking knowledge; its very NAME means "knowledge". I think ID is an interesting new field of SCIENCE, altho it is definitely in its infancy. Do you guys know why the first stealth plane had lots of angles? DO you? Because
ID is like that now - we're at the very beginning of learning to identify/model/simulate/research characteristics of intelligent design. It needs to be studied and analyzed and experimented on. We could learn a lot from these things, and I honestly think the main reason that the ballistic-type people are fighting it is fear and ignorance and their own personal belief system and not being open-minded.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-21-2005 at 02:48 PM. |
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11-21-2005, 02:56 PM | #379 | |
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11-21-2005, 03:24 PM | #380 |
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And now for something related but Completely Different
==
From The World of Dilbert: Weaseliest Behavior (poll results) Advocating the teaching of Intelligent Design in schools 9661 Gas price gouging 7828 Reporting it as "finding supplies" when white people loot 6157 Corporate boards approving CEO pay packages 6149 Politicians blaming other politicians 6131 Outsourcing 2687 Downloading music or movies without paying -------------------------------------- Dear Dogbert, Why do bad things happen to good people? Marty Dear Barfy, God loves you. Unfortunately, the alien overlords who put you on this planet are using you to test cosmetics. Sincerely, Dogbert
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