10-04-2004, 01:46 PM | #361 | |||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I like you twisted that into a race issue. Quote:
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10-04-2004, 01:50 PM | #362 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-04-2004, 03:38 PM | #363 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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In America, we have a justice system. It's not perfect, of course, but I think it's pretty good, considering the imperfections of people. (BTW, is Chancery still around in England? Great book - "Bleak House"!) And if someone has NOT been convicted, then they're considered innocent. Sure, some people get off, but what do you suggest - lynch mobs based on personal opinions? I sure hope that our justice system starts to deal with white-collar crime more, but in the mean time, we gotta go with what our current legal system is. Now if "certain voters of a non-white persuasion" were denied a vote because of their criminal record, while "certain voters of the WHITE persuasion" were NOT denied a vote because of THEIR criminal record, then that is CERTAINLY a valid complaint and a travesty to justice. However, your complaint seems to be that "certain voters of a non-white persuasion" were denied a vote because of their criminal record, while people at Halliburton, who did NOT have criminal records, were allowed to vote. To me, that's not a valid complaint, except maybe in a philosophical sense (and again, I hope we start cracking down more on white-collar crime). America has laws on who can vote and who can't. It seems that these laws were followed. We don't go on opinions of guilt; we go on guilt as found by legal process. Your (apparent) charge of racism is just totally unfounded, IMO, unless you're claiming that white felons are being allowed to vote while non-white felons aren't.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-04-2004, 03:53 PM | #364 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Why do I defend them? Becuase your whole argument is based on "perception". You yourself just said --
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And don't tell me what I want to do and what I don't want to do. I'm not happy with what Halliburton did - but has anything come out that actually says that Cheney had anything to do with it? NO - there hasn't. In this country there is such thing as "innocent till proven guilty" - but I guess here it doesn't matter. You just want to blame Cheney based on "perception", based on the fact that he WAS CEO. Just becuase Cheney was the former CEO - does not mean that Halliburton should not have been used for the rebuilding of Iraq, nor does it mean that Cheney had anything to do with the high bills they were giving to the government. You would be surprised at the advantages that ALL companies take on the government. People seem to feel that the government is like a big corporation and that a little extra charge won't hurt, just like so many people justify their actions in stealing from Wal Mart, or suing McDonalds. it's funny - you bitch and moan about Halliburton taking advantage of the country and people act like Cheney had a role in that. Well if he's so powerful - then why was Halliburton fined for MILLIONS of dollars and had to refund the government for the money? You seem to ignore that fact very nicely. Also - I never said just because other adminstrations did stuff - that it makes it okay for the Bush adminstration. The thing is - private discussions are nothing new nor should they be a problem. The only reason why liberals find them a problem now is because they don't like Bush. Are private discussions with EVERY citizen and corporation public knowledge? What about the democrats in Congress - do they open up their private discussions with corporations and citizens open to public scrutiny? The thing is though - you act like the Clinton adminstration was completely honest. And as you pointed out - there was the whole medicare thing which was behind closed doors. I didn't have a problem with the whole medicare crap - just from who engineered it. Hilary Clinton had NO adminstrative position WHATSOEVER - who the hell is she to be making policy? If Laura Bush started presenting stuff to Congress and acting like part of the Bush Adminstration - the liberals would be outraged. There was also MANY political favors given to Clinton's friends and previous partners. If Clinton wanted Hilary to have a high profile adminstrative role - then he should have made her part of the adminstration.
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10-04-2004, 04:02 PM | #365 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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but in general you are right... however, it is a simple fact in the US (and elsewhere) that the more money you have the more likely you are to get away with a crime... and the poorer (and more of a minority) you are, the more likely it is that you will be put in prison, even if innocent... so gaffer's comments aren't completely out in left field
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10-04-2004, 04:11 PM | #366 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-04-2004, 04:33 PM | #367 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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btw, i have no problem with criminals voting... they are still citizens and should have a say in what happens in our country
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-04-2004, 04:41 PM | #368 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm not aware of all the details in regards to criminal records/voting - is anyone else? (or I could be unlazy and look it up, I suppose ... ah, no, it doesn't really matter to me what all the details are, as long as they're applied fairly.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-04-2004, 04:50 PM | #369 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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basically decided state to state... some can, some can't
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-04-2004, 04:56 PM | #370 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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oh, ok - thankee
(actually, I think the state concept in the USA is pretty cool)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-05-2004, 10:13 AM | #371 | ||
Elf Lord
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Rian, I appreciate the way you framed your criticism of my statement. BJ has basically explained it: these guys got caught, to the tune of millions of dollars of YOUR money, yet how many went to jail? The race element is to do with how (and this is true in the UK as well, so please don't take it as Americaphobia) black people are more likely to be both convicted and imprisoned than white people charged with the same offences. So, our judicial systems tend to discriminate against black people. Now, if you've also got an electoral system that denies the vote to people with a criminal record, then you've also got an electoral system that is biased against black people. Florida has such a system. Some people in Florida have their criminal records because of, wait for it, crimes committed during Civil Rights protests in the 60s! EDIT: I don't think there's an equivalent phrase to "left field" that comes from cricket! Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-05-2004 at 10:16 AM. |
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10-05-2004, 10:29 AM | #372 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-05-2004, 11:18 AM | #373 | |
Elf Lord
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Last edited by The Gaffer : 10-05-2004 at 11:19 AM. |
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10-05-2004, 01:42 PM | #374 |
Quasi Evil
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What! You mean yall feriners understand bout our tax system?! Well cut my hair! I was lead to believe that you were still living in mud huts and trading with beads. I mean Ive seen the way that there Shakespeeyor feller writes and that aint no proper english. when will yall ever learn to speak english like normal folk anyway? Its clear he still needs some major skoolin. No wonder ya cant understan when we type in american on here.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
10-05-2004, 11:54 PM | #375 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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People outside the US seem to have a lot of opinions on the election and things - and they only get bits of information which are filtered through the media. I posted the C-SPAN links so people OUTSIDE the US could watch the debates unfiltered. French 2 News had said they would have "hilights" of the debates. That is seeing the debates ONLY as that news media wants you to see them. The best thing to do is to see the press conferences live, watch C-SPAN, look up the voting records of the candidates. I wonder though - does the Gaffer get C-SPAN where you can see the press conferences as they are? Does he get ANY of his information WITHOUT the media cutting it up into bite size pieces or putting their own spin on it? I watched the the press conference Rumsfield made yesterday on C-SPAN. The FULL questions AND the FULL answers without them being cut up by the media. I then watch CNN - and they had one of the quotes from Rumsfield. They completely left off the second part of his answer which changed everything of what he was saying. Gaffer - you make accusations about me all the time - live with it like I have to put up with the **** from you. I do think you only read what supports your views. If you don't - oh well. It's not like you haven't said in that past what you think my news sources are. And BrownJenkins - I agree with state rights and I feel that the federal government is getting WAY TOO big. State rights is the cornerstone of our Constitution.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-06-2004, 09:36 AM | #376 | ||
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The full debates were shown in Canada. Drgnslyer got to watch them, I hope he posts his views here. Alas, I did not see them.
Does anyone know of an online transcript of the debates? (ie. the debates word for word.) Cheers, Nurv
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10-06-2004, 01:12 PM | #377 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, I think I just won an award for being unable to explain myself well, but hopefully you see what I'm saying. EDIT - oh, how's this : an unintentional effect of our laws about felons being unable to vote (in some states) is that blacks are unable to vote in a unfairly higher proportion than whites, given that blacks are more often convicted than whites when charged with the same crime. Hopefully this will be corrected some day, and the unintentional bias will then disappear. And again, I don't know - perhaps those voting laws were made to cut blacks out of the vote. I sure hope not. Personally, I think the concept is not "out in left field" - a felon has committed an offense against society, and I think it's not unreasonable to restrict his societal rights, at least for awhile. [/ramble]
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-06-2004 at 01:17 PM. |
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10-06-2004, 03:06 PM | #378 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree that it's not intentional. However, a bias can be unintentional, IMO. |
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10-06-2004, 03:20 PM | #379 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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10-06-2004, 06:12 PM | #380 |
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Transcript
I suggest that everyone checks out www.factcheck.org -- the nonpartisan U. of Penn website that well...checks the facts. Cheney mistakenly sited it as www.factcheck.com in the debate. The most recent article talks about Halliburton, combat pay, job #s, small businesses, Iraq, No Child Left Behind, etc. There also previous articles about the pres. debate, speeches, and ads.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. Last edited by Mercutio : 10-06-2004 at 06:14 PM. |
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