Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - Page 19

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-26-2005, 02:03 PM

I think that the guess is that it was a fake DD all the way through the night.

Lord Choc Obo · 09-26-2005, 06:33 PM

ys, but it is a VEEEEERY big guess.

what are the odds of it being true??? JK told us someone was going to die, and it would be a big dissappointement if she lied to us.

durinsbane2244 · 09-26-2005, 07:46 PM

no, she wouldn't have lied, for someone would have died, the imposter, and spocko, and imposter could've apparated them!

Spock · 09-26-2005, 09:49 PM

Why and to what end, it only hurt L.V. and an imposter would have no motive...durino!

durinsbane2244 · 09-27-2005, 08:36 PM

ooooooo, so now you mock me. . .

[in opera voice]
YOU WILL CURSE, THE DAY YOU DID NOT DO,
ALL THAT DURINSBANE ASKED OF YYYOOOUUU!!!!!
[righteous organ part comes in]

Spock · 09-27-2005, 10:50 PM

...doobie doobie doo, don't do what he do
...doobie doobie da, he that is from Fla.

inked · 09-28-2005, 09:29 AM

Dumbledore is dead.

Long live Dumbledore.

There is no warrant in any of the books to date for a living person being able to act as the portraits of the former Headmasters do. I think that Dumbledore's presence in the framed picture in the Headmaster's office is the final nail in Dumbledore's physical extant existence. However, as JKR has been at pains to point out, death is not the end, merely the next great adventure. IT is clear that there is the possibility of action from beyond the veil. Think how many times that has been explored - particularly at the graveyard battle between HP and LV. The whole former headmaster/picture convention: former headmasters retain personality, will, and limited action in the physical world - in fact, they function in a supranatural existence of some sort. So, I think Dumbledore will be able to act within those constraints as the prior incidents have indicated, i.e., he will be able to give advice and information to his successor - if they wish it and ask for it.

So, who'll be the next Headmaster?

Beren3000 · 09-28-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

There is no warrant in any of the books to date for a living person being able to act as the portraits of the former Headmasters do.

Well, before book 5 there were no hints about Occlumency. And (IIRC) we never saw side-along apparition before book 6. So that's not proof....

durinsbane2244 · 09-28-2005, 07:45 PM

ok, pictures move while the occupants live, doi!

Elanor · 09-28-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

You can't just make such a generalization. After all, JKR is an author whose style is still developing. From one book to the next, there are changes in her style, so how do you know she's "not that kind of author"?

JKR may be a relatively new writer, but I wouldn't say her style is developing. The tone of one book may differ from another, depending on what sort of issues the characters face, but I think her style remains very consistent. Before HBP came out there were all sorts of rumors and unlikely theories flying around that Sirius wasn't dead, even though the fact of his death was made very clear at the end of OotP. Now the same thing is happening with Dumbledore. J.K. Rowling has said in interviews that Dumbledore is dead. She has also said that she takes the deaths of her major characters seriously. That's how I know she's not the type of author to fake us out with the death of someone like Dumbledore. Harry Potter may be a fantasy character, but he deals with serious issues-- truth, morality, responsibility, prejudice, evil, growing up, identity, hypocrisy, death. It would be extremely incongruous and irresponsible of JKR to have a character die, be mourned so deeply, and then come back to life. She has had fake deaths, but it's never been a good thing that they weren't dead! (Wormtail, Crouch Jr.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Because from the "limited contact" Harry has with him, we can learn of his character. And of what I learned he is too modest to brag (at least too modest to brag the way he did in HBP)

My point about Dumbledore "bragging" is that he doesn't -- he simply states the truth. And HBP reveals his character in more depth; it doesn't disguise him. JKR has already done plenty with disguises in books 3 and 4. She's moved on from that into more subtle mysteries -- Harry's false visions, the HBP, Draco and the Vanishing Cabinet, the Horcruxes, etc. Having Dumbledore turn out to be alive would be anticlimactic and useless. What would Dumbledore do, but help Harry find the rest of the Horcruxes? Harry Potter is a classic hero story, and there's always a point in hero stories when the hero has to be cut free of his helpers and wise guardians, and finish his task by himself. So far, Harry's always had Dumbledore to turn to in an emergency and explain things at the end. But at this point in the story Harry has to grow up and finish his task (defeating Voldemort) on his own, without Dumbledore holding his hand. Harry may even die himself in the end, as JKR has hinted many times. I can't say whether he will for sure or not, but she has made it plain that this is not a pretty little fairy tale where bad things come undone and everyone's happy at the end!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

It says in the book that Harry heard a sound that scared him more than anything else that has happened that night: Dumbledore's pleading. That doesn't sound very "quiet and simple" to me.

Dumbledore's pleading didn't scare Harry because it was loud and booming, or high and screechy, or overemotional. The sound wasn't what frightened Harry. This is simply a figure of speech to illustrate how serious the situation was: Dumbledore knew he was going to die.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren3000

That's too large of an assumption to make when we don't know how the Vow was worded, don't you think?

But we do know how the Vow was worded. We can read every word of it in Chapter 2: Spinner's End.

Sorry, but your evidence just isn't substantial enough to convince me. We're all entitled to our own opinions, so keep your theory, but don't look down on (or give smug looks to

) those who disagree.

Elanor · 09-28-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

So, who'll be the next Headmaster?

Isn't it obvious that it's McGonagall? In fact, I take that as even more conclusive proof that Dumbledore is dead, since the Headmaster's office opened itself to her. The magic of the castle could tell that he was gone.

Pytt · 09-29-2005, 06:22 AM

No, not McGonagall. I don't have a candidate myself, but I don't think McGonagall will be headmaster. She could and would handle the job, I'm sure, but I think that she isn't fitable to replace Dumbledore in such hard times. I don't know who it might be, but I don't think, and I also don't really hope it's going to be McGonagall.

Besides, a thing I wondered about. Will Hogwarts be present in the next book? In the ending of HBP, Harry says he's going to leave and not coming back to the school. In that case, will we here of Hogwarts other than briefly? I would at least have visited Dumbledore on the Headmasters Office for guidance, if I could, assuming he is dead and can speak from the Frame on the wall. But besides that, and other small things, I don't really think the book will tell us that much of Hogwarts.

Rconsole · 09-29-2005, 07:32 AM

Well if Hogwarts is in book 7 I think McGonagall will be headmistress, it's not like she would hire somebody else in times like these, and novody has any reason to kick her out...

Spock · 09-29-2005, 12:28 PM

Then too perhaps the school will shut down for the next book and the OOTP members will help HP against LV?

Lord Choc Obo · 09-29-2005, 05:59 PM

well we don't know what's gonna happen with the school, do we? the board had to decide about that... wait and see

durinsbane2244 · 09-29-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pytt

No, not McGonagall. I don't have a candidate myself, but I don't think McGonagall will be headmaster. She could and would handle the job, I'm sure, but I think that she isn't fitable to replace Dumbledore in such hard times. I don't know who it might be, but I don't think, and I also don't really hope it's going to be McGonagall.

Besides, a thing I wondered about. Will Hogwarts be present in the next book? In the ending of HBP, Harry says he's going to leave and not coming back to the school. In that case, will we here of Hogwarts other than briefly? I would at least have visited Dumbledore on the Headmasters Office for guidance, if I could, assuming he is dead and can speak from the Frame on the wall. But besides that, and other small things, I don't really think the book will tell us that much of Hogwarts.

who's the candidate?!?!

Telcontar_Dunedain · 09-30-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

So, who'll be the next Headmaster?

I think Fudge is quite a likely option myself.

Pytt · 09-30-2005, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

who's the candidate?!?!

I don't know. Maybe some completely new person. TD said Fudge, that could be. McGonagall is an option, but I don't want her. I want something more exiting, to take the place after Dumbledore. But I think everyone would be bleach copies of DUmbledore.

Lord Choc Obo · 09-30-2005, 07:33 PM

I thought of Fudge too, but he's too dull and too scared to lead Hogwarts, the school has a superbe high reputation (though now very damaged too) and an ex-prime minister who refused to handle the Voldemort matter properly and who mostly counterworked DD would not be the first choice I think :s

tolkienfan · 09-30-2005, 08:13 PM

Harry or Hermione? (once they're a lot older)

09-26-2005, 02:03 PM	#361
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	I think that the guess is that it was a fake DD all the way through the night. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

09-26-2005, 07:46 PM	#363
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	no, she wouldn't have lied, for someone would have died, the imposter, and spocko, and imposter could've apparated them! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-26-2005, 09:49 PM	#364
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Why and to what end, it only hurt L.V. and an imposter would have no motive...durino! __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

09-27-2005, 08:36 PM	#365
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	ooooooo, so now you mock me. . . [in opera voice] YOU WILL CURSE, THE DAY YOU DID NOT DO, ALL THAT DURINSBANE ASKED OF YYYOOOUUU!!!!! [righteous organ part comes in] __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-27-2005, 10:50 PM	#366
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	...doobie doobie doo, don't do what he do ...doobie doobie da, he that is from Fla. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

09-26-2005, 06:33 PM	#362
Lord Choc Obo Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 101	ys, but it is a VEEEEERY big guess. what are the odds of it being true??? JK told us someone was going to die, and it would be a big dissappointement if she lied to us.

09-28-2005, 09:29 AM	#367
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Dumbledore is dead. Long live Dumbledore. There is no warrant in any of the books to date for a living person being able to act as the portraits of the former Headmasters do. I think that Dumbledore's presence in the framed picture in the Headmaster's office is the final nail in Dumbledore's physical extant existence. However, as JKR has been at pains to point out, death is not the end, merely the next great adventure. IT is clear that there is the possibility of action from beyond the veil. Think how many times that has been explored - particularly at the graveyard battle between HP and LV. The whole former headmaster/picture convention: former headmasters retain personality, will, and limited action in the physical world - in fact, they function in a supranatural existence of some sort. So, I think Dumbledore will be able to act within those constraints as the prior incidents have indicated, i.e., he will be able to give advice and information to his successor - if they wish it and ask for it. So, who'll be the next Headmaster? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 09-28-2005 at 09:30 AM.

09-28-2005, 07:45 PM	#369
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	ok, pictures move while the occupants live, doi! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-29-2005, 06:22 AM	#372
Pytt The Supreme Lord of The Northern Eagles Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: trondheim, norway Posts: 1,388	No, not McGonagall. I don't have a candidate myself, but I don't think McGonagall will be headmaster. She could and would handle the job, I'm sure, but I think that she isn't fitable to replace Dumbledore in such hard times. I don't know who it might be, but I don't think, and I also don't really hope it's going to be McGonagall. Besides, a thing I wondered about. Will Hogwarts be present in the next book? In the ending of HBP, Harry says he's going to leave and not coming back to the school. In that case, will we here of Hogwarts other than briefly? I would at least have visited Dumbledore on the Headmasters Office for guidance, if I could, assuming he is dead and can speak from the Frame on the wall. But besides that, and other small things, I don't really think the book will tell us that much of Hogwarts. __________________ Don't Panic!

09-29-2005, 07:32 AM	#373
Rconsole Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 359	Well if Hogwarts is in book 7 I think McGonagall will be headmistress, it's not like she would hire somebody else in times like these, and novody has any reason to kick her out...

09-29-2005, 12:28 PM	#374
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Then too perhaps the school will shut down for the next book and the OOTP members will help HP against LV? __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

09-29-2005, 05:59 PM	#375
Lord Choc Obo Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 101	well we don't know what's gonna happen with the school, do we? the board had to decide about that... wait and see

09-30-2005, 07:33 PM	#379
Lord Choc Obo Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 101	I thought of Fudge too, but he's too dull and too scared to lead Hogwarts, the school has a superbe high reputation (though now very damaged too) and an ex-prime minister who refused to handle the Voldemort matter properly and who mostly counterworked DD would not be the first choice I think :s

09-30-2005, 08:13 PM	#380
tolkienfan Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Internet Posts: 803	Harry or Hermione? (once they're a lot older) __________________ Don't be hasty! Thanks so much to Last Child of Ungoliant, Twista, and BeardofPants for my avatar!