11-01-2004, 01:13 PM | #361 | |
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I don't see any more questions from you so far, WF (I was busy with family all weekend and am now trying to catch up) - I was hoping you'd get some more good ones in. I like your questions.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-01-2004 at 01:15 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 02:40 PM | #362 |
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OK - finished reading ... I need some time to think a bit, tho - lots of thoughts!
One question while I'm ruminating : Reincarnation seems to me to say there must be a general upward trend (i.e., IF eventually all will be one with the absolute, THEN good karma must outweigh the bad overall.) However, I don't see a general upward trend that's taken place over recorded history as far as karma-type good works, as I understand them. (Of course, in areas which rely on accumulated knowledge, such as the medical field, there's advances - but I don't think that would be considered a karma-type thing, do you?) What are your thoughts on this? ps - yes, the story I heard was said to be a very old one.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-01-2004 at 02:42 PM. |
11-01-2004, 02:46 PM | #363 | ||
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It's not necessarily an upward trend. If you have bad karma you might get reincarnated as a tax attourney (j/k! )! Seriously, you would get reincarnated as a slug or a dog or something that has less chance to get good karma than a human does. If you're really awful, you might get reincarnated as a rock, because then you cannot better yourself, and you will be a rock for eternity. Is that correct?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-01-2004, 02:53 PM | #364 |
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But if eventually all will be one with the absolute, then there MUST be an upward trend, for good karma outweighing the bad is how one moves up and is eventually released from the reincarnation cycle, right? I'm not saying an individual can't get flunked down a level, just that the general trend must be upward.
And one more quick question - What do you think of the caste system, and of a religion that would create/perpetuate it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-01-2004, 05:20 PM | #365 |
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And another -
What if a person does not WANT to be one with the absolute?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-01-2004, 05:50 PM | #366 | |||
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In my research, I came across a quote from a teacher of Vedanta (Swami Prabhavananda, from The Sermon on the Mount according to Vedanta) that says Hindus "would find it easy to accept Christ as a divine incarnation and to worship Him unreservedly, exactly as he worships Krishna or another avatar of his choice. But he cannot accept Christ as the only son of God." Now as a follower of Vedanta, do you accept this statement from a teacher of Vedanta? And since Jesus said He IS the only son of God, is Jesus just wrong about Himself, or did He deceive us, or what? Or do words and thoughts mean nothing? (asked sincerely ) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-01-2004, 06:31 PM | #367 | |||
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Great questions R*an, I'll just add to one you posed, kind of asking it to you and obviously asking Ñólendil. (I hope you don't want to leave the hot seat, as you hinted earlier...)
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I'll take a stab at it... is it logical because there are elements of truth in both statements? Because some birds fly and some birds don't. But why wouldn't you say "Most birds fly"?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-01-2004, 07:36 PM | #368 | ||||
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Part 1
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So advences in the medical field, which you mentioned, are certainly karma-type things. Everything is a karma type thing. As far as reincarnation being an upward trend, the idea is that it ultimately is, but people are going backwards all the time. Murderers don't move up in their next life. It certainly does not seem as though everyone is moving towards enlightenment, that much is for sure. Indeed it is stressed in Hindu scripture often that very few people have attained enlightenment. It is a very slow process, compared to the Heaven model in other religions. Quote:
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I chalk it up to old, bad, traditions. The Vedanta Society does not condone or support or appreciate the caste system. It's just one of the few negative things to have come out of scriptures. It is talked about in the Bhagavad Gita, "the Song of God". The Bhagavad Gita is a wonderful book with a great message, but I think one must remember it was written a very long time ago. In those days, for instance, it was believed to be bad karma to be reborn as a woman, though today, every woman is viewed as a kind of manifestation of Lakshmi, consort of Vishnu and a form of God. To answer your second question about the religion from which it came, it doesn't make me think any less of Hinduism. Every religion has something about it or in it, or it's past, that I don't agree with. Hopefully someday the caste system will be abolished from the society itself, in India, rather than just in formal law. Quote:
There are people who do not desire any of that, really, on the surface anyway. They would rather just have fun, or get pleasure out of life, or maybe just be miserable. But I think there is an underlying desire in everyone to get away from suffering.
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11-01-2004, 07:41 PM | #369 | ||||||
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Part 2
I said "I believe the Truth is bereft of names". You said:
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The problem is, people get caught up in the names and the words. How can it be a table, or if it is not table? Let go of the word "table" for a moment, and start rethinking about names. We invented the concept of a table. We called it "table", and we said a table is a four legged piece of furniture that you can eat on. But the table came from the earth that held the seed of the tree that was cut down by the loggers, who's ancestors stretch back to the beginning of humanity, and who's bodies may ultimately come of the stardust. Call it a table, but understand that it is other things. Quote:
That is what I mean when I say that "Truth is bereft of names". Interesting note, the Buddhist term "nirvana", literally means "extinction of all notions". Quote:
As a follower of Vedanta, I think I do accept the statement, but not because it was made by a teacher of Vedanta. I personally agree. I don't know why it is recorded that Jesus said he was the only son of God. I imagine it could very well be the miraculous nature of his birth. Buddha was not born like that, I do not personally believe Krishna was a historical person. What Swami Prabhavananda may have meant was that he believed by "only son" we should interpret "only incarnation", and he can't agree with that. But I think something else may have been meant by it. I certainly don't think Jesus was mistaken, or that he deceived us. To me there's also the possibility he simply didn't, historically, say that, but I would go to other conclusions before coming to this one. I said: "The goal of Hinduism is to become one with God" Quote:
There are four great sayings of Hinduism: "Prajnanam Brahma" ("Complete Awareness is Brahman", "Pure Consciousness is Brahman") "Aham Brahmaasmi" ("The Witness in me is Brahman", "I am Brahman") "That Tvam Asi" ("This and That are One and the Same," "Thou Art That", "You are the Divine") "Ayam Atma Brahma" ("Body, Mind, Soul", this saying equates the three, suggesting you act with the body, think with the mind and witness both as the Atman, or soul. I have heard it also translated, "this inner self is Brahman", which I suppose takes "Atma" and "Brahma" together) I had to look up these meanings to make sure my memory was serving me correctly. I think they can tell you a lot about Brahman. You may be confused now, though, about the difference between Brahma and Brahman. Apparently, linguistically, they are the same word. Mythologically and Philosophically, they are different. Quote:
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 11-01-2004 at 07:43 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 10:00 PM | #370 | |||
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The other thing is an example of the style of talk I hear from Hindus/Buddhists, and I think (without meaning to be disrespectful at all ) that it is without meaning, and is therefore harmful if you try to make it mean anything, and I'll explain that further in my response to Ñólendil. Quote:
In physics, you'll hear that light acts like a wave, and light acts like a particle. Now a wave and a particle are different things, but they each have some important attributes that help to describe how light behaves. Light is a complex thing, and it is often helpful to use different analogies to describe certain parts of light - the two descriptions are complimentary, NOT contradictory. But I never confuse light with anything else. In the Bible, it speaks strongly of the need to be prudent and plan, and it also speaks strongly of how we don't know what will happen in the future and we need to place our trust in God. One would think, why plan then, if we don't know what will happen? They are somewhat conflicting on first look, but on a deeper look, they are complimentary; each describing a different part of how we should act. IMO it is foolish and wrong (and sinful) to NOT plan for the future. I know I have a mortgage payment at the end of the month, so I don't spend all our money on, say, buying a horse (which I hope we can do someday - I love horses!) Yet I realize that I cannot put my TRUST that I will have a house in the fact that we have money in the bank now; many, MANY things can happen that might change that. My TRUST is in God. (I'm NOT saying if I trust in God that I will have a house; I'm saying I trust in God to take care of me, with or without a house.) Quote:
Now I'm NOT saying that I understand everything about birds, or flying, or that I'm even right, or even that that statement covers every aspect about flying. But I AM saying that if I say something, it means something, and CANNOT also mean the opposite.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-01-2004 at 10:06 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 10:15 PM | #371 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-01-2004, 10:23 PM | #372 |
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I disagree about those bits of logic, Rian.
Following your logic, the following does not make sense: "God is a rock. God is not a rock." This, according to you, (correct me if I am wrong), does not make sense. Let's add sentenced in between those statements. "God is a rock. He is what I hold on to in this world, so that I do not flow away with the tide. He is my salvation. However, God is not made up of physical minerals, I will not pray to a boulder. God is not a rock." Make sense? It should. The first statement, "God is a rock", is a metaphor. The second statement, "God is not a rock," is a statement meant literally. Your ideas about logic don't take important language devices into account. "God is a rock. God is not rock" can sound nonsensical, but you don't know if it's a nonsensical statement until you know what the speaker means. I am suggesting that meaning is more important than the words used for them. Take my example. "That is a table. That is the Sun." Is it a table, or the Sun? It can't be both, right? What if you did the add-ins? "That is a table. The table was a tree. The tree could not survive without the Sun. The Sun is in that table. That is the Sun." Now it's more complex, and the first statement "That is a table" is the literal statement, while "that is the Sun" is more figurative. But you don't need the add-ins, as long as you understand that they are there. Thus "That is a table, that is the Sun" can be a perfectly true and understandable statement. One must read between the words, and beyond them.
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11-01-2004, 10:31 PM | #373 |
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And I disagree with what you said, my friend and will explain why, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. Dinner and homework call!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-01-2004, 10:37 PM | #374 | |||
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Response to Karma questions
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Accumulating good karma is most desirable. So Good Karma is good. But it won't get you to Realization unless you are not attached to the benefits of good karma. I suscribe to beliefnet.com, the Hinduism section. They send me daily Hindu wisdom, or I wouldn't remember this quote, from the Bhagavad Gita. The speaker here is Krishna, an Incarnation: Quote:
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11-02-2004, 06:59 AM | #375 |
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Ñólendil, do you mind if I ask, in what light do you hold Chenrezig/Avalokiteshvra? (the Buddha of Compassion)
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11-02-2004, 07:15 AM | #376 |
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I'm not sure what you mean.
I very much enjoy the writings of the Dalai Lama, who I understand to be the embodiment of Avalokiteshvara. But I don't profess to know much in detail about the different Buddhas, about Avalokiteshvara. I know a bit about Shakyamuni Buddha, but then, I suppose anyone who looks into Buddhism will. I hold the Buddhas to be enlightened beings, who have attained Oneness with the Divine. I equate nirvana with God, an equation that I first came across in the writings of Thich Nhat Hanh (in Living Buddha, Living Christ, have you read that?). So, as I don't quite understand your question, I would say that I hold the Buddha of Great Compassion in a good light. I would greatly appreciate it if you tell me more about Avalokiteshvara. I am already grateful, I may say, for the correct spelling of that name. I have always typed it "Avolokiteshvara".
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Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 11-02-2004 at 07:18 AM. |
11-02-2004, 07:23 AM | #377 | ||
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As with all names/places etc there are lots of spellings, but in Lamaist Buddhism, we usually use the Tibetan form, Chenrezig, easier to spell, eh? BTW, do you know the Mantra to Avalokiteshvara? i have it on CD |
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11-02-2004, 08:35 AM | #378 | ||||
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I found many quotes about the Kingdom of God being the same as nirvana. But here are two quotes which seem to equate nirvana to God Himself. Quote:
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11-02-2004, 11:57 AM | #379 |
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That sounds like a brilliant read, i will have to see if i can find it somewhere, although i don't have many good bookshops where i live - small town syndrome, i think.
I'm afraid i don't know the english translation of the top of my head, but the mantra itself is entitled Om Mani Padme Hun and it is wonderful, i have one sung as a chanted mantra, and the other set to the traditional music, with traditional tibetan instruments, |
11-02-2004, 03:00 PM | #380 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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