05-04-2006, 10:24 AM | #361 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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So I guess you can call it just another belief system. But I think characterizing it as "just the same" as fundamentalist belief systems is a vast generalization that doesn't take into account the fact that I don't believe the way I do because I know that I'm right. That doesn't really matter one way or another. I believe the way I do because I'm concerned about the people around me.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-04-2006, 10:31 AM | #362 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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The problem with marriage is our need to define it as a state. Imagine that if to join a religion you had to first register for a license with the government. They would have no right to tell you whether or not you could join that religion, but they asked for it to be registered none-the-less. This is what marriage is in our society. State recognition of something the state has no business being a part of. We would lose absolutely nothing by taking the government out of the marriage business. Quote:
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-04-2006, 11:07 AM | #363 | |
Elven Warrior
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How we justify and maintain those standards when we know where they came from is the tough part. |
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05-04-2006, 11:54 AM | #364 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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But all this "relativism means you can do what the hell you want" is hair splitting. In reality, people don't, and yet ALL morality is clearly relative. |
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05-04-2006, 12:24 PM | #365 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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and that's where religion came from as well
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-04-2006, 01:47 PM | #366 | ||||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-04-2006, 01:52 PM | #367 | ||
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As far as âpredilectionsâ (I see youâve added that term to your usual âbehavior onlyâ argument) thatâs the whole point here. If homosexuality is an integral part of their nature (just as some concentration of melanin is an integral part of the nature of a âblackâ person) then the comparison stands quite soundly. Quote:
Now if you want to talk about (as I said to Gwaimer) Adult/Teen sex thatâs a whole different ball game. But when you use the term âboyâ and âchildâ yer way out of line in this comparison.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-04-2006, 02:28 PM | #368 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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"To give assent, as to the proposal of another; agree. See Synonyms at assent." It's readily apparent that a child can agree to participate in sexual intercourse; consent merely involves an act of the will (and usually a vocalisation thereof, but not necessarily). Anyway, data CANNOT determine whether anyone has the capacity to determine something, especially something like this. You're playing fast and loose with words in the Major League here, IR.
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05-04-2006, 02:57 PM | #369 | |
Quasi Evil
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No Im not. You knew exactly what I meant there. Sure a child can consent to something (if you want to be a technical stickler) but because they are a child (in this society) their consent is not recognized as legal. And to trick a child into literally consenting to sex is the equivilent of sexual abuse. I child can also drive if they like but the chances of that activity leading to injury or death are greatly increased despite what the child (or any adult) thinks is best.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 05-04-2006 at 02:59 PM. |
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05-04-2006, 03:07 PM | #370 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Oh wait, that doesn't work either.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-04-2006, 03:27 PM | #371 |
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Then that settles it! Priests should NOT be allowed to marry! Lets make a constitutional amendmant!
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
05-04-2006, 03:27 PM | #372 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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If a man tells a woman that he loves her, and wants to marry, and through this enters into the sexual act with her, then dumps her, is this (legally speaking) abuse? Tricking someone into it is not necessarily abuse from a legal POV. Driving is so vastly different from the sexual act that it is irrelevant. And if you try to draw parallels, I'm pretty sure it will make your post censor-material. Quote:
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05-04-2006, 03:30 PM | #373 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
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Though I should say, Gwai, that not all children were raised in homes were rationale was championed...some kids can be tricked.
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05-04-2006, 03:34 PM | #374 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The lack of championing of rational does not negate one's innate ability to reason. All or practically all men have the capacity to reason, regardless of their background. Some kids can be tricked (or see through trickery) regardless of their background. Same is true of adults.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-04-2006, 03:47 PM | #375 | ||
Elf Lord
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One of the problems I'm seeing with this debate we're having is that it is focusing exclusively on male-male relationships. What about female homosexuals? Homosexual sex between two females is more likely to resemble heterosexual foreplay, does that make their attraction to eachother any less vaild? And you are all forgetting that homosexual relationships are not just about sex. Outside of the bedroom, can you truly say that behavior exhibited by homosexual partners is significantly different from behavior shown by heterosexual couples? What about courtship behavior? Would you claim that both types of couples don't go on dates, don't give eachother gifts, don't sneak cuddles when the parents aren't looking, etc.? That homosexual couples aren't couples until they've had sex and until that happens they're what? Just close friends? What I see happening is a dehumanizing. People try to isolate one single, clear cut cause so that they can say 'That's wrong' or 'That's right'. But human relationships don't work that way. You can't say that sexuality is defined by behavior, or genetics, or choice alone because it's really defined by a combination of all three, just like everything else that we consider human. And instead of actually listening to each other and resolving the true issue, that a majority group unjustifiably feels threatened by a minority group and is trying to limit them by excluding them from a cultural practice which the government rewards, is being drowned in statistics and subjective definitons and religion and politics and ridiculous cause/effect arguments. It is entirely frustrating. Quote:
It is rational consent. It is not informed consent. Therefore it does not constitute legal consent.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" Last edited by Lady Marion Magdalena : 05-04-2006 at 03:57 PM. |
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05-04-2006, 03:48 PM | #376 | ||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-04-2006, 06:04 PM | #377 | |
Elf Lord
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Besides, it's not only actions or behavior, and it's not like if they stop doing one thing or another they'd stop being homosexuals... |
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05-04-2006, 06:08 PM | #378 | |
Lady of Letters
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05-04-2006, 08:34 PM | #379 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
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(Comment: This thread grows faster than the Teacup!)
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05-05-2006, 05:48 AM | #380 |
the Shrike
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I don't have anything new to add, but hear ****ing hear Lady M. That is a very valid point you raise RE: what makes a couple, and YES it is more than the sex, and who sticks what in which hole. People often forget that. One of my best friends is gay, and lo! and behold, SHE isn't humping her girlfriend like bunnies in heat when she's around me. There's more to their relationship than fiddling with each other's bits.
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