07-28-2003, 10:45 PM | #361 | ||
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And of course the authors immediately revised their textbook, because they know that to keep publishing information that has been shown to be false is a grave scientific sin.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-28-2003, 11:12 PM | #362 |
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GrayM - that's why I was so surprised that Cirdan was so much in support of that idea I had really thought that it was generally not supported anymore. But he had really spoken v. strongly to me that it was true.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 11:20 PM | #363 |
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For Nebraska Man
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_nebraska.html Piltdown Man http://home.tiac.net/~cri_a/piltdown/piltdown.html As for "Archaeoraptor" and National Geographic: National Geographic is a commercial publication, not a peer-reviewed scientific journal. In their eagerness for a scoop they rushed into print with a claim that was not substantiated. The fraudulent fossil was immediately exposed by paleontologists as soon as they had a chance to see it.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
07-28-2003, 11:23 PM | #364 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My ONLY point was that I thought it was unfair, as well as innacurate, to limit the charge of fraud to Christians Would you say I'm correct?
Good for the guys that found it was a fraud I wish National Geographic had given the discovery of the fraud as much press as the original promotion of it, though, because I imagine many people that read the original story never found the retraction.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-28-2003, 11:25 PM | #365 | |
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More on Haeckel
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-28-2003, 11:43 PM | #366 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-28-2003 at 11:44 PM. |
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07-28-2003, 11:51 PM | #367 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-29-2003, 12:32 AM | #368 | |
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And that made poor timid me rather scared In fact, there's a quote in Unfinished Tales about RÃ*an (there's very little written about her) that I think fits me very well : "By hard fate she was born into such days, for she was gentle of heart and loved neither hunting nor war." (the "such days" were the days right before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad - the Battle of Unnumbered Tears) Believe it or not, I HATE (I repeat - HATE) conflict and when people have different opinions than I do. I'm not a natural debator, nor one by preference/liking by any means.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2003, 07:46 AM | #369 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-29-2003, 12:02 PM | #370 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't think you (or anyone else) mean to scare me on purpose but for some reason that line just came off as really firm and decided, and that always scares me a bit - I don't know how I come off to others in this thread, but you guys might be surprised at how often you make me feel really timid and shy. But then I try to overcome it and post what I think is right, because I think that's more important than giving in to shyness and being afraid of what other people think. You guys have been really quite encouraging to me by telling me that our differences in opinion don't affect whatever friendship you feel towards me, and I appreciate that. I also appreciate your patience with my slowness in posting. I wish I could post faster, but I just can't.
I think having to deal with so many medical issues with my middle son has made me able to stand up to people more for what I feel is right. (and even with insurance people , I feel it's important to be respectful - but one can be respectful and at the same time call a spade a spade.) It's really ridiculous how many insurance battles I've had to fight. It took months and months just to get him a wheelchair - the insurance people said he was too young to know how to work it (I think he was 3 at the time) - we knew better. It took him about 30 seconds to figure it out when we finally got it, and to be able to fit thru tight doorways and spin around in place. Yes, that phrase ("Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny") is quite a mouthful! Do you think it's true? I promise I won't get sidetracked on that issue (at least at this point! ) if you want to answer. I really want to finish my summary essay first so I can post an overall creationism evidence picture. I hope things are going as well as they can during this difficult time for you, Cirdan.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-30-2003, 05:38 PM | #371 |
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I do not think that embryotic development shows all the stages of evolution. There is some usefulness in comparing ontology between species as one aspect of correlating relationship and the evolution of similar structures. The development of DNA analysis and genomics is eliminating this type of subjective observation as a qualitative tool.
I know what you mean about insurance companies and the medical industry. I had to yell at my doctor becuase he couldn't figure out what was wrong with me after five years. Only then did he finally run the right tests. I wish you the best with your challenges.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
08-02-2003, 11:19 AM | #372 |
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Ruinel, HOBBIT, you have both posted wondering whether or not any evidence for creationism has been posted. If you want to read my posts on the subject, see page 17, in which I posted a great deal on the Creation story and how it is made scientifically possible. Almost all of those posts (possibly because of the length of them) has gone unanswered.
Meanwhile, I'd like to send one more post to back up further my last week's posts (as yet still largely unanswered) on Exponential Growth. Ah yes, Ruinel, HOBBIT, the mathematical evidence that humans have to increase in number by exponential growth in order to survive is a strong evidence for Creationism. Merely an evidence, obviously, not a proof, but the Bible does assume the exponential growth rate. |
08-02-2003, 11:58 AM | #373 | ||
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Further discussion of agriculture as a population source
The following argument I am going to present, I hope will successfully demonstrate further the point I made in previous posts against crops being a sufficient reason for our increase of human growth.
Please though, this is merely a tailing on argument to my more complete ones in previous posts, so if you're going to argue with me, argue not only with this argument but with the ones I posted earlier. They're on page 17, and possibly I might have gone into it a little on page 18, but I'm not sure. Quote:
This period of growth in the learning about agriculture came after Indians had already existed in North America for a long time. Looking at the mathematical arguments for exponential growth and at how hugely populated the country was with buffalo and other game, it seems completely illogical that their numbers of people remained relatively small for about 15,000 years, however, I'll pass over that point to get on to my stronger argument. Because I can't know precisely what the growth in the industry of corn was, or whether it went on in spurts, or whether most of it came to be known at the very end this 3,000 year period, I have decided to skip arguing that this huge period should have produced large amounts of people. Since they seem to have had quite well developed knowledge of agriculture by 2000 B.C., though, I have decided to launch my argument from there. From the above post, the only thing I assume is that they had at least 1,000 people by 2000 B.C. producing crops. This seems a small number, when you realize that for 3,000 years they've been learning crops. I have tried to keep all of my numbers small, so that they're less disputable. Quote:
I brought these numbers to a mathmetician I know, and asked him, based upon these numbers, how many people you'd expect to see by the time Columbus arrived. He did the math in his head and then checked it quickly on paper, and told me the number you'd expect was one trillion. A trillion people is an incredible number. Of course, we didn't take into account war, disease, and other possible disasters. I put the age rate pretty low, because I knew that Indians died more quickly then modern people and also partly to take this into account. I also made the exponential growth number, 2.4, rather low considering that these people had crops, so their numbers of growth should be greater. One thing further you have to note is that exponential growth hasn't taken any major fluctuations in our own graphs, despite the World Wars and despite vast plagues. So I tried to make my numbers rather small in this equation. Smaller than the real numbers would probably have been. I believe you will probably have to dispute various points in my assumptions, to dispute the mathematical conclusion. Many nations in the world's population had agriculture by 2,000 B.C. My old World Book source I think demonstrated that around 10,000 B.C. some groups had crops. In world population, between 2000 B.C. and A.D. 1, the population of humans in the world is thought to have only grown by 30 million people in total. I took this to the same mathmetician and showed him the figures, and he said that that was not exponential growth we were seeing in action. He couldn't explain it, and wanted to know the source of information for the World Book graph. In Conclusion, here is my main point Even if you do accept the statement that agriculture caused us to grow in such numbers, this does not solve the problem, for even in the times where we had agriculture, that agriculture did not cause nearly so large of population expansion as it would be expected to cause. |
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08-02-2003, 02:54 PM | #374 | |
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Re: Further discussion of agriculture as a population source
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08-02-2003, 03:04 PM | #375 |
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lmao!
Oh, I got a chuckle alright! |
08-02-2003, 03:53 PM | #376 |
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The use of the 2.4 number is faulty. It would be akin to saying that everyone should wear the same size clothes. Even today different populations have very different statistics. One needs to evaluate the actual ages of remains and causes of death to even get a vague idea of the death rate. Other factors, such as the increased desertification in the western US changed the capacity for population support. Additional North Americans never domesticated animals and continued to rely on hunting and gathering for protein and supplimented with limited agriculture.
The high density population centers that arose with agriculture, along with the domestication of animals, lead to a significant increase in the number of lethal pathogens like smallpox, plague, influenza, cholera, malaria, etc. The rapid spread of these diseases within these large populations had a limiting effect of the benefits of agriculture. Prior to the selecting for immunity populations would have been devastated by disease outbreaks.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
08-02-2003, 04:17 PM | #377 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-02-2003, 07:23 PM | #378 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Re: Further discussion of agriculture as a population source
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-02-2003, 08:24 PM | #379 |
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eh, why can't evolution be guided?? Why wouldn't forced mutations count as evolution? No expert though, but that doesn't make sense to me.
But going by that definition of evolution Rian, then you say that "divine evolution" is not possible. (edit: ah yes, i was right. evolution is evolution)
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08-02-2003, 08:41 PM | #380 | |
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Re: Re: Re: Further discussion of agriculture as a population source
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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