What people think of Two Towers (*SPOILERS*)

[BeardofPants]

Oh man, I gotta drink some caffeine. I could have sworn I just read: He could no longer take the fairy form after the fall of Numenor.

[Arathorn]

ROFLMAO!

[Gerbil]

As far as I'm aware, Sauron had no body - he didn't really have any physical incarnation as we would know it. Maiar spirits do not need a physical body to survive (eg Gandalf too) - when Sauron has been destroyed in the past (eg downfall of Numenor, the Last Alliance) he loses his physical form, which takes thousands of years to be rebuilt. There was a time when Sauron could appear in a fair form to deceive people, (but I think he lost that ability after Numenor?)

The Eye is a bit too literal, but it's fine as far as I'm concerned, other than the fact it seemed to change shape from films 1 and 2. Possibly Sauron is showing his ethnic origins?

[squinteyedsoutherner]

"There now he brooded in the dark until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power:and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among elves and men could endure"

The Silmarillion

The Eye is a symbol of his power and strength, and more specificly his mind (it contains malice), not a seperate eyeball. Notice that both a physical Sauron and an "eye" with malice is being described, they are one and the same.

"But Sauron was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the ruling ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in the waste places; and he took no visible shape again FOR MANY LONG YEARS"

The Silmarillion

For many long years clearly means he did take shape again, and the only time that could have happened was during the war of the ring.

The Eye-ball is retarded and Tolkien would either laugh or cry if he saw it, perhaps both. Jackson does not know this mythology well enough. Sauron could have been shown as a hideous shape in the shadows of his tower, difficult to see, but there. An Eye? give me a break

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Oh man, I gotta drink some caffeine. I could have sworn I just read: He could no longer take the fairy form after the fall of Numenor.

Well, in the recently released "Sauron' Secret" it was revealed that after a bottle of rose' he could manifest himself in a tuttu and leg warmers. One of his more frightening visages.

[markedel]

I still haven't gotten over someone thinking Bombadil is irrelevant because he wasn't in the movie. Must be the hangover.

[Christiana]

Thats not why i think he wasnt important, i thought that before the movie.

[BeardofPants]

Bombadil is important because:

• He allowed them to stay in a safe haven for a few days
• He demonstrated an ability to exist beyond the rings lure
• He saved them from the barrow wights - ghastly things that came out of the Witchking of Agmars realm, and in all likelihood, were working with the nazgul to get the ring.
• He gave Merry and Pippin swords, which would eventually aid in the bringing down of the witchking.
• He gets to sing cool songs, which drive off the more shallow fans.

*Empties head of image of Sauron in a tutu...*

[Earendil Overboard]

It's certainly appropriate to imagine Sauron as wraith-like, but the text seems to indicate he has a visible body--particularly when Gollum refers to "the Black Hand." If you like, I suppose you could assume Sauron is a wraith clothed in black armor, and Gollum refers to a hand in a gauntlet. However, although that interpretation seems fitting for a Dark Lord, I don't think it's the idea intended. To me, "Black Hand" suggests the hand itself.

Moreover, the idea of black skin is expressed also in Appendix A just after it says Elendil and his sons founded cities near Mordor in the belief Sauron was dead: "Sauron was indeed caught in the wreck of Numenor, so that the bodily form in which he long had walked perished; but he fled back to Middle-earth, a spirit of hatred borne upon a dark wind. He was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was through terror alone."

So, Sauron had a hideous black body at the time of the Last Alliance when the Ring was cut from his hand. Surely that's clear.

Squinteyed's quotes from the Silmarillion describe Sauron abandoning that form "for many years" after losing the Ring, which implies he made a body for himself again later. And the time when he did so was probably around the year 2060. Next to that date in the chronicle of the Third Age, it says: "The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again" (Appendix B). Gandalf also talks about this in the Council of Elrond, explaining his visit to Dol Guldur and discovery that the Necromancer "was none other than Sauron,...at length taking shape and power again."

It also seems logical to assume that Sauron took the same shape then that he last possessed: the hideous black one.

Gerbil, you have the idea that Maiar don't need a body and it takes thousands of years for them to rebuild one that is lost. But that doesn't seem to be true in all cases. For one thing, the chronicle says Numenor fell in S.A. 3319 and Sauron was overthrown in 3441. So, it took him less than 122 years to make a new body, and he might've even done it in 1 year for all we know. Then there's the case of Gandalf, who dies and then gets rebuilt right away--no waiting required. But Gandalf is "sent back" by the Valar, so I think it's clear his new form is given to him rather than something he creates for himself. Finally, there's the case of Saruman, who ISN'T so favored by the Valar and seems to actually die when Grima cuts his throat:

"a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing."

I think the most natural interpretation of Sauron's death is that his spirit "dissolved into nothing" when the Valar rejected him. That's what I would assume if I were just reading the book and didn't try rationalizing about the powers of Maiar. However, I suppose it's also possible that he continued to exist in a very weakened state, and maybe he could even take physical form again someday. But I don't think so, for the following reasons (see next post).

[Earendil Overboard]

Clearly, the Maiar are NOT equal in power. For instance, the 5 Istari differ in the degree and nature of their power, in part because of their areas of interest and study. Saruman studied the arts of the Enemy more than the others, and Radagast was especially concerned with animals. I think Gandalf focused on understanding the different peoples of Middle-earth and coordinating their resistance to Sauron. In doing this, he also made use of the Ring of Fire given to him by Cirdan. But Sauron is more powerful than any of the Istari. Gandalf even says in Fangorn, "I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still." Similarly, Melkor is the most powerful of all the Valar.

Considering what happens to Gandalf and Saruman, and that Sauron obviously needs no help from the Valar to take a new form, I think Sauron must be an unusually powerful Maiar. Probably this is due partly to: his nature (the way he was created); his hobbies (always studying to increase his power); and positive influences (e.g., the tutelage of Morgoth!).

The manner of Sauron's end also implies that there are limits upon a Maiar's power and it's possible for that power to be reduced enough to at least make them impotent if not destroy them completely. In Sauron's case, he may have only survived Numenor and then defeat by Elendil and Gil-galad because he had already invested the greater part of his power in the Ring. When the Ring is finally destroyed, it seems he loses something essential to his being. His "death" is very similar to Saruman's except in the scale of the effects: instead of a mist forming, there is "a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky." It is then taken by the wind and "blown away" just like the last wisps of Saruman's spirit.

But it's really hard for me to deduce exactly what happens to Sauron and Saruman, or to rationalize their nature. Is there even any specific information provided anywhere about the nature of Maiar and whether they can be destroyed? Is their fate like that of Elves? When an Elf's body is destroyed, their spirit goes to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor but can never again walk among other Elves with bodies. If the Maiar were gods, I think they would be indestructible and their power separate from physical form. But if that's the case, then why would it make any difference if Sauron's power were in a body or in a Ring, and how could he be hurt either way by having the vessel of his power thrown into Mount Doom?! If he were a god, then destroying the Ring would just release the power within it, and it could then take another form.

[Gerbil]

I'd assume that when Saruman and Sauron are finally vanquished their spirits remain, merely impotent through lack of power.

The Maiar, like the Valar (and Elves for that matter) have their lifeforce bound to the earth, and can only end when it too ends. (Elvs reincarnating being one example of this, although few ever come back from Valinor).

Morgoth is, I think, an anomoly - he was pushed beyond the bounds of Arda, presumably into the void (one questions whether this is the 'original' void and if so, would he therefore meet up with Illuvatar? Bet that'd be a nice meeting ).

The dissolving of the 'spirits' etc. I take more to be a symbolic rejection by the Valar - the wind from the west (in effect, Manwe, or ultimate judgement on ME) blows them away. However, I'd fully expect Saruman's spirit to end up in the Halls of Mandos, probably 'forever'. As to Sauron's spirit, I would imagine it simply continues to exist in a form so weak he cannot affect what is around him, utterly impotent until the end of time.
Power in spirits waxes and wanes - Olorin (old name time eh? ) returns much strengthened as the White. It's possible that the Valar simply reduce Sauron's strength when the One Ring is destroyed (IE ME deals with Sauron, and they enact the final 'blow' so to speak). However, I don't believe this is the case.
The power that Sauron has passed into the Ring is part of him, his spirit / power. This is, while still part of him, now embodied in a physical form, and is therefore susceptible to ultimately be destroyed, which is what eventually happens.

The part I find interesting is that Sauron didn't realise the Ring still existed merely by the fact that he regained much of his former strength - surely if the Ring had been destroyed by Isildur, he'd never have risen again in the first place.

Of course, these may be things Gandalf etc. only really knew from veiled knowledge from the Valar - Sauron may well have been ignorant of this, and merely wanted the One Ring to give him the power to take over ME once and for all, not to prevent it being destroyed and him being vanquished with it (Gandalf makes it clear that Sauron does not even contemplate that they may try to destroy it).

Ironically enough, Sauron was on the brink of being too powerful to stop even without the Ring, in the end he brought about his own destruction by clearing Mordor in a hasty assault, leaving Frodo a relatively clear path.

Silly bugger, eh?

[Kalimac]

JRR Tolkien mentions in Letter 246 that if Frodo had kept the Ring, Sauron would have eventually confronted him in physical form:

**But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact.

Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him.

Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the PalantÃ*r Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance. Letters of JRR Tolkien***

I believe that Sauron had a physical form in the LOtR, the reader just never 'sees' it, there are just hints. Sauron seems to do his best work hidden in shadows. But, the Dark Hand is there, and it's not just a big flaming eye.

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't envy Jackson the task of trying to create a convincingly, 'terrifying' bully from a 'flaming' red lidless eye.

>>Saruman and Sauron are finally vanquished their spirits remain, merely impotent through lack of power.<<

I agree. Their 'remaining spirits' may have been what Tolkien had intended to resurrect in a later unfinished (abandoned) sequel to LOtR.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

Perhaps this would be a good time to again point out that Jackson said many changes were made in the first film because a flaming eye was not enough of a villain. This was certainly his defence of the expansion of the Saruman character. An Ironic statement in light of the fact that Sauron is, without question, a physical entity at this point in Middle Earth, and Jackson is simply wrong in his flaming eye belief. Which brings me to another question:

Who was advising him on the details of Middle-Earth? It's not like this stuff is difficult to look up and verify.

That ridiculous eye burning atop the tower is such a wonderful symbol of the extent to which this screenwriting team understands this piece of literature.

A f****n' burning eye, unbelievable!


Met-a-phor:

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase "literally" denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to denote likeness or analogy between them.

[Gerbil]

I can live with the eye.
What annoys me is when the Ring starts whispering, like when it interrupts Frodo and Gandalf talking near the start of FotR.

The Ring is EVIL.

Worse than that, though, it has no manners.

[eowyngirl14]

Ya... I thought it was kindof creepy when the ring talked. It was kindpf cool too though. At first I didn't know who/what was talking.

[Elvedans]

Originally posted by middleEarthStar
I can´t describe the feeling to you when I saw the premier of The two towers here in sweden where I live!
First of all I couldnt understand that I was actually there again.
After a one year I was there again!!!!
It was the moment we´ve all been waiting for.

I nearly cried when the movie started. I was so touch!!!

I think that Peter Jackson did a great job on this move two, like the first........BUT he did some things wrong...too different fron the book...


but it took my heart anyway!

Wow! You put into words what i could not and i totally agree.
Did anyone else come out shaking?

[Earendil Overboard]

Interesting comments and interpretations. Tolkien's remarks in Letter 246 are fascinating, and clear up that Sauron took the form of a man of great stature. It's also interesting how Tolkien thought the power of a spirit that takes physical form must be very great over things in close proximity.

But I still haven't arrived at a complete, consistent, and logical understanding of Maiar and their powers. You may be right that they're indestructible, and therefore that Sauron and Saruman live on in a weakened and impotent spiritual form.

I guess the problem for me is partly deciding how gods can be realistically imagined and depicted. They're usually imagined as immortal beings that exist without a physical form but can create or inhabit one at will. Looking at The Silmarillion again, it says the Valar and Maiar were created by Illuvatar and entered the world together. So, it seems both were created as beings without bodies. It says the Valar gave themselves bodies that they wear like clothes, but they also sometimes walk around without them, invisible to other creatures. They can do this because their shape "comes from their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself," so their power is completely separate from the form they may put on. Are the Maiar the same?

Judging from what happens to Gandalf, Sauron and Saruman in LOTR, I'd think the Maiar must be different. BUT...maybe not. It also says that the Maiar could be equal in power to Valar: "the Valar took to them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves." Moreover, it seems implied that Maiar can also wear a body or not at will: "in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men." To me, this suggests the Maiar might have a body in Valinor, but on trips to ME they are usually invisible. On the other hand, maybe they seldom have visible form because many lack power to create it or need the help of the Valar in this.

But what about Olorin, Melian, and Gorthaur (Sauron)? It says that Olorin loved the Elves but "walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts." It seems from this that Olorin COULD assume physical form at will! Then there's Melian, who after the death of Thingol suddenly "vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar." When she wanted to leave ME, her body disappeared as if it had never existed, like an appearance she'd given herself temporarily. Then there's the unusually powerful Sauron, "the greatest," "most terrible," and "most trusted" of Morgoth's servants. It says he became "a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and phantoms, foul in wisdom," etc. Also, "he could assume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful."

Doesn't it seem that Olorin/Gandalf, Melian, and Gorthaur/Sauron can change their physical forms at will?

[Earendil Overboard]

If these Maiar can change form or be an invisible spirit at will, and their power is completely separate from their physical form (as with Valar), then...how can they ever be diminished through the destruction of a physical form that temporarily holds their power? If Sauron puts his power into a Ring and the Ring is destroyed, so what? His power should still be the same. Likewise, the death of Saruman's body should have no effect upon his essential nature.

So how do we explain the way their spiritual being is diminished or maybe even destroyed?

I'm not sure it makes sense to me, but in The Silmarillion it also says that Morgoth became weaker because of using up his power in destructiveness and the domination of others:

"he...squandered his strength in violence and tyranny."
"his hatred devoured him, and in the domination of his servants and the inspiring of them with lust of evil he spent his spirit."

Similarly, it says of Sauron that he "walked behind [Morgoth] on the same ruinous path down into the Void."

We're told on one hand that they lose strength from trying to control other creatures or things, but then that's not what we actually see happen in the stories. Both Morgoth and Sauron grow in power through dominating others, and Gandalf says Sauron is stronger than himself (despite long years of "spending his spirit" being naughty?). And like Gerbil points out, Sauron becomes incredibly powerful even without his Ring. Also, what's happening when Gandalf deprives Saruman of his color and breaks his staff? How can he take away another Maiar's innate power? It only makes sense if the Valar conferred that power to begin with, but it says in The Silmarillion that Illuvatar made them.

Only the Valar know! Maybe the best explanation is that LOTR is inconsistent with the other book in the representation of the Maiar. And I guess I have to accept the idea that Sauron's power was somehow locked into the Ring and able to be destroyed, strange as that seems.

Sorry to belabor these things in a thread about the movies. I should've started a new one.

By the way, it bothered me too that the Ring is shown in the movie speaking to people. It whispers Aragorn's name at Amon Hen also, as well as saying something in Bag End. Really!! A talking Ring?

[Cirdan]

Since Sauron was a black man of great stature I guess they could have just cast Shaquille O'Neil. Shazzamm!!

Much of Sauron's power was in the effort of gathering and controlling power. It was a more tenuous power of politics in the control of others through threat and promise than of true magical power of direct control over matter. The most important battle won against Sauron was that of the mind and of overcoming fear and uncertainty.

The film has characters that are not easy to care much about. Drama then becomes circumstantial, requiring greater threats to engage the audience. A character about whom we care a great deal can be in less danger and yet exude higher drama. I did not feel nearly the empathy for movie Frodo as I did for text-based Frodo. This is mostly due to his lack of qualities that make him sympathetic. Without bravery the hero is a victim. Without nobility the master is a tyrant. Without intelligence the leader is a pretender. Aragorn/Viggo is the protagonist of the movie and Frodo just the happless hobbit in over his head.

[Earendil Overboard]

Speaking of Maiar forms, what about the Balrogs? Did these Maiar choose to be demons of fire or did Morgoth somehow make them that way? Can they change their form like others of their kind, and be an invisible spirit if they wish? And if so, then how can they be destroyed--even by another Maia?