Theological Opinions , PART II

[Butterbeer]

so, why Lief- in your opinion- does God think Britain is exclusively the spawn of hell and mother of all evil?

forgive me as a purist here- but i think (in my humble and honestly exploring way) that God has pure thought and pure existence- and i for one have no such arrogance to attempt to speak on his behalf - nor to attack Great Britian or England as you do- and to by the same breath raise up the states of the United states of america as pure beyond pure and as utterly beyond the reproach of both man, state or God.

Forgive me if i find this hard to swallow or if i find it my personal and spiritual duty to question this ...


..oh - and as you say - this is not a personal attack!

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so, why Lief- in your opinion- does God think Britain is exclusively the spawn of hell and mother of all evil?

He doesn't, as far as I'm aware. I never said he did.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i for one have no such arrogance to attempt to speak on his behalf - nor to attack Great Britian or England as you do- and to by the same breath raise up the states of the United states of america as pure beyond pure and as utterly beyond the reproach of both man, state or God.

I was not trying to say the US was pure beyond pure, and neither was I trying to attack Great Britain or England. What I was doing was responding to your post in the Venting Thread, where you said the US has more to be ashamed of than Britain does. I was rebutting your claim.

I think that Britain has more to be ashamed of in its history than the US does. I brought up some of the bad points from Britain's history against which the US has nothing to compare to back my claim. That probably made it look as though I was really down on Britain, but I tried to dispell any such misunderstanding by saying in the final paragraph of my post that I personally think Britain is great. I love Britain. They're a neat country with great strength and resolve, and national character and spunk . They're also loyal allies to us, as we are to them. We've had great relations and economic ties. I love Britain.

My post's purpose was not to trash Britain or say the US is perfect. The point of my post was to argue against your claim that we have more to be ashamed of in our history than they do. I love both the Britain and the US, as I said in that same post you're referring to.

Britain showed immense courage and guts in World War 2, after Chamberlain was out. Britain was just so cool in those days with Winston Churchill. I think it did very well with an impossible job during the Mandate Days in Israel. I've been under the impression that Britain often ruled its territories well in its imperialism. Britain ruled the North American colonies very well too, in comparison with how other nations ruled their colonies. Britain was brilliant on the sea. Queen Elizabeth the First was brilliant, and I really like Queen Victoria and Albert too, and the British culture and history. King Alfred was just unbelievably cool. There were great leaders and terrible leaders in England's history. England is a land of courage and a stiff upper lip, along with great loyalty and perseverance. Their caricature is the stalwart, tough officer with the "jolly good show!" comment . They're great.

I just disagreed with your outlook on the US. I think we're awesome too and that that's evident in our history as well . Though just like Britain, we do have our dark periods also.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

..oh - and as you say - this is not a personal attack!

Well, saying that I'm acting with "arrogance," does somewhat come across as a personal attack, whether it's deserved or not. In future posts, if you removed words like that, that would be nice.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Deja Vu. I don't know if it's because I've been up for almost 24 hrs, I'm trying to get my sleep schedule back in order, or what, but that entire conversation between Lief and Gwaimir Windgem seems like it's happened before. I have some things to say on some of your post Lief, but alas I am way to tired and out of it to think straight right now.

I really need to get on the ball though, I have been procratinating on responding to a post you made on page 1 and already we are on page 4. You guys move fast. I will get to it, just give me some time.


Edit- I'm moving so slow right now 2 post came before I even finished this one. And I noticed I'm using a lot of smilies.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Deja Vu. I don't know if it's because I've been up for almost 24 hrs, I'm trying to get my sleep schedule back in order, or what, but that entire conversation between Lief and Gwaimir Windgem seems like it's happened before.

The one about Communion has. It was very, very long conversation last time we had it. Huge emails. But it was a very profitable conversation too, for me.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

I have some things to say on some of your post Lief, but alas I am way to tired and out of it to think straight right now.

As soon as you're ready. And don't feel like you have to read all the arguments I'm firing off at others. It can get very long, and I'm interested in hearing your response!

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Edit- I'm moving so slow right now 2 post came before I even finished this one. And I noticed I'm using a lot of smilies.

It's because we're happy right now . As for myself, I've been sick but right now I'm feeling a lot better, and I also got plenty of sleep last night and thus am feeling very good. So that, as well as all the excellent posts on Entmoot, are putting me in a very good mood.

[Butterbeer]

What I was doing was responding to your post in the Venting Thread, where you said the US has more to be ashamed of than Britain does. I was rebutting your claim.

this is an untruth.

purely and simply an Untuth.

I never said that nor ever thought it- you miss the point entirely.

The whole point was - it is pointless picking out any particular state on the charges you brought intitally- the whole point is you could apply them equally to all states.

yes - i refered to england in a lesser way - but in context of current affairs only.
yet- your reply, despite lip service- seemed to be either

a) missing the point entirely

or

B) a personal attack- somewhat subsequently supported by the added disclaimer??? - i mean what is that discaliamer about??

[Lief Erikson]

Here's what you said:

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

yes, in a general sense you are right - look at what is happening in Ukraine - VERY important to Russia- the Ukraine.

But then, Lief lets not be naive nor be biased here - most of these complaints can be directed equally at the United States (and indeed to a lesser degree to Britain too)

That clearly sets Britain up as having less to be ashamed of than the US. You said the complaints against Russia can most times be directed equally at the US, and to a lesser degree to Britain too.

I didn't know you were talking only about current affairs. I assumed you were referring to history because your post was a response to mine, and the post you were responding to was talking about history. Plus you mentioned the starvation in the Ukraine, which also was a reference to history. So I really did think you were talking about history, and that's why I responded what I did. Not meaning to imply that you were being purposely misleading. I just made a mistake. I'm sorry about that.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

But what are the odds of this occurring? Normally when things are just randomly thrown around, they don't end up in an artistic structure. The vast majority of the time, they end up rather more like . . . a mess .

Also, what to you would look artistic in the paint spill might look to a large number of other people like just a mess. The universe, on the other hand, is almost universally seen to be beautiful. And that should seem rather odd.

Furthermore, the universe is also far, far more complex than the paint spill. It wouldn't take many variables coming out differently to keep it from looking beautiful. This also is a major contributor to the oddness that it should be artistic.

Well it was a mess, and the universe is probably a mess for that matter. In the philosophy thread, I went into more depth on what I think of as art and beauty.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Why do you think anything in between doesn't matter? What about lying about someone to make him lose his job so that you could get it yourself? That's pretty obviously bad too. But what's obviously bad shouldn't be considered to be the only bad things. It's very possible that things are bad or good which we just can't tell are bad or good, because we're short-sighted humans.

For myself, I think the world is divided up entirely between white and black. I don't believe in any "gray area." However, I do believe that us humans are so limited in our ability to see that often things look like gray to us. They aren't really gray, but they look that way.

That’s pretty interesting, but I don’t trust humanity enough to tell me what is black and what is white, even if they claim to be speaking on behalf of a higher, trustworthy power. (Even if I believed in God and prophets, I might wind up trusting a false prophet.) I don’t feel like deciding for myself either, because IMO my judgments just won’t matter.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You think the world makes sense? Life, time and people are all concepts I have difficulty wrapping my brain around, myself. To me, the concepts make more sense with God. But I can understand other people feeling differently.

I don't think life, time, and people are concepts, but unquestionable facts. They exist, and that's a given, so I’m sure they make sense as well. How and why I have no clue and no need to know. But people make me curious. Of those three things, that’s the only one I could ever hope to understand in depth. That’s why psychology is just so awesome to me.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I was not wearing chain mail .

Oh, man. How cool would that have been?

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

One of the highly interesting facts about prayer also is that certain people tend to have their prayers answered a large percentage of the time. Wierd coincidences keep happening again and again for the same people, while nonreligious folk often don't experience nearly as many such coincidences. A lot of nonreligious folk would claim they haven't seen any evidence of God. The religious folk keep seeing the evidence piling up all the time throughout their lives.

And I know you're going to ask, "perhaps because they're looking for it?" And that probably is part of the answer. But it doesn't explain bizarre flukes like the ones I've mentioned, which often occur around the same people. People who have the gift of prophecy keep having prophecies come true. People who have the gift of miracles keep having more and more miracles occurring around them.

I agree, most of them can’t be explained (though psychology impresses me with the amount of explanations it presents), but what they suggest to me is a lapse in our knowledge of the sciences, not necessarily divine intervention. I’m sure at least some events credited as miracles are falsely credited. Especially the very common ones, like a lost dog wandering back home or a premature baby being born healthy. Hey, it happens.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

As an example, let me point to a major Christian minister named Brother Andrew. He spent many years of his life smuggling Bibles illegally into the Communist Soviet Union. God looked after him in his efforts. Brother Andrew learned that he must trust in God rather than his own wits in hiding the Bibles, so to prove that he was trusting in God rather than his own ingenuity, he always put a small stack of Bibles on the front seat right next to him, in plain sight of the border patrols. Other Christians who worked with him did the same, and they kept getting through.

Coincidence? Perhaps bad border patrols, you might argue. But the coincidences kept happening, and happening, and happening. Eventually, the coincidence just gets unbelievable. The odds! God is a very rational explanation for why the coincidences tail religious folk

That’s pretty cool! One of those things I wish I was there to see; I probably would have started laughing hysterically in the guards’ faces after a while. That’s an example of something I wouldn’t feel confident in explaining.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

But it wouldn't always be like that. For myself, my strongest experiences of feeling God's presence have always come from complete surprise. Sometimes I have sought that experience and not found it, but often it will come when I don't expect it.

For example: One of my strongest ever experiences of feeling the Lord's presence was while I was sitting on a bench in my garden.
[. . .]
Also when I had the experience, I was not in a meditative state. I was actually doubting the experience's existence, and that doesn't make it likely that it could just come.

Finally, when I had the experience I was absolutely certain that it was impossible for my own mind to have conjured up something of that extremity. It was that powerful and overcoming.

I’m extremely hesitant to comment on this because I don’t want you to think I’m downplaying that experience for you. I’ve never felt anything on that level before, and don’t feel qualified to argue about it. However, you reminded me of a question: Do you think that there is a difference between a sudden personal realization and divine revelation? In the absolute least judgmental and most sincerely nicest way possible , I wonder if you think yourself capable of thinking independently, thinking some things independently, or totaly dependent on God for thoughts? This is what I was getting at when I asked if you’ve ever tried living less religiously.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Okay, I see what you're saying. And I agree, partly. Though I don't think it is impossible to make predictions. Newton made predictions about the planets that worked out all right. I've made predictions about how family members will respond to events that turn out accurate. And although I agree with you that in this life we can't know things, but must rather believe things, I do think that enough evidence can be assembled to make conclusions that are very highly likely to be accurate.

Here we see eye to eye, except that I don’t feel like making as many conclusions. I didn’t mean to say that nothing can be predicted, but certainly we cannot see the big picture.

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

yeah, that's what's really cool here - we can have vigorous debates, but the vast majoritiy of people here keep it very polite and friendly and considerate. Some of my best friends here are the ones that I debate most vigorously with on the discussion threads, and I think it's so cool that we can have different opinions and still be great friends. And I've learned so much in the discussion threads, too, both by examining my own beliefs and examining the beliefs of others.

Yay!

Amen!

Gwai, I love that Onion article.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Here's what you said:

That clearly sets Britain up as having less to be ashamed of than the US. You said the complaints against Russia can most times be directed equally at the US, and to a lesser degree to Britain too.

I didn't know you were talking only about current affairs. I assumed you were referring to history because your post was a response to mine, and the post you were responding to was talking about history. Plus you mentioned the starvation in the Ukraine, which also was a reference to history. So I really did think you were talking about history, and that's why I responded what I did. Not meaning to imply that you were being purposely misleading. I just made a mistake. I'm sorry about that.

firstly - i never ever , ever - mentioned anything about -- hang on- while i try and work this obscure rubbish out ... (btw that is just a fact- not an opinion)


... what is it?

"the starvation in the Ukraine"

?????????????????????




>>>>>>>>>>>>> ????????????????


what on God's green Earth are on you on about Lief????


AND HERE'S A VERY IMPORTANT AND HONEST POINT LIEF

dO NOT- REPEAT - hangon - caps lock ....

do not -repeat NOT -

imply you are quoting me when you are in fact quite blatantly not quoting me but distintcly and - it appears- willfully mis-representing me!!

please do me the simple courtesy and have the basic honesty (as i have to you ) to be clear and not attempt to mis-represent by inference what i actually said?

Furthermore- i am personally disturbed and confused why you appear to contnue this personal attack - however subtle you hope to weave it - against me???

I know of no reason why you should attempt to do so? I find it sad frankly, Lief.

Particularly from you, someone i have a lot of respect for, and ironically because, you stand - (normally) honestly behind your beleifs.

I cannot state how much this saddens me. I mean with a lot of mooters - you'd just ignore it- not think twice aboutit - but with you i find these personal attacks frankly disturbing and really quite saddening.

where is this all coming from, Lief - and why??


If you wish to quote me then quote me. A simple honest thing to do.

Do NOT imply a quote with twsited meanings from what i actaully wrote or said - i do not need you to tell me what i wrote- especially since what you write bears no discernable meaning or relation to what i wrote that you pourpote to "quote".

I shall be passing this post on to a number of mooters, mods and admins in serious complaint.

[Butterbeer]

So - you already edited the untruths heh?

what's the idea here?

put the lies out for a while and then edit them before i get a chance to reply?

[Rían]

I don't get all this, BB - Lief may have misunderstood you, but I'm sure it's nothing intentional, and I certainly don't see any personal attacks coming from him.

I think your idea to pass it on to a mod is a good one, because it will get this off the thread.

[Butterbeer]

I have- i have reported the post - whatever that means?

It and these attacks make me so angry.

i have also pm'd you (and out of fairness and honesty to lief also - and others and mods etc) the exact word for word text of the reported post ...


i too do not understand it Ri???

[Butterbeer]

mmmm .. unless he made a mistake (not sure how???) quoting me and then realised and edited it?????

but how can you do that??

anyway- i am off to bed.

[Rían]

just to let you know, BB, your PM isn't showing up

[Butterbeer]

i re did it - you should have it now.

[Lief Erikson]

I'm responding to you over PM, Butterbeer. I think the Theology thread really isn't the place for this conversation, and I'm sure you and Spock would agree.

[Lief Erikson]

Fiddlesticks. Butterbeer, I've written you a PM about this, but I can't get through because your PM box is full again.


I'll respond to you tomorrow, Bombadillo. I mean it this time .

[Lief Erikson]

I'm sorry if this post is still focused on some of the same questions I was asking earlier, Bomb, but I guess I just haven't yet got answers yet that are detailed enough to satisfy my curiosity 100% of the way.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I guess they’re laws of the universe, or laws of nature. We think about them too hard, and complicate them.

Interesting. I'm glad we see eye to eye on this. Very interesting.

So what is the point of following these laws of the universe? I know you said we shouldn't need reasons for the way we live our lives, but for my sake let's look for a reason. If everything is meaningless and worthless, even happiness and life are worthless.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I’m not sure if I mentioned value yet. I think there’s a fine difference between value and worth.

Would you elaborate on that? I'm very interested to hear your view on value.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

In the same way we're entitled to our own opinions, we're all entitled to do whatever we want, and nothing should limit us. It's a shame that this is utopian and impossible. But if people don't want to work, they shouldn't be forced to. Whether their lives are ultimately good, bad, or worthless (contributing nothing to the grand scheme of things), they deserve that respect.

Why? I would work a shovel until it breaks. Or a car until it breaks down or gets too old to be useful to me. If humans are just another part of nature, why do they deserve more respect? And why shouldn't we just work them to death, if their lives mean nothing?

Besides, slavery isn't sadism . You can't say it's wrong. Neener neener neener .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

That was stupidly ambiguous of me. What I said was that if you think nothing is important, than it's important for you to be patient and disciplined.

So are you saying you think nothing in life is important? Because if it's all meaningless, that would seem to make sense.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

If you adhere to the belief that nothing is important or worthwhile, then you don't do anything solely because it isn't worth the effort. You just wait for death to take you. After a while, though, you get so bored that you want to speed up the process, and you start to wonder if you should kill yourself. If you're not extremely patient (able to stand the wait) or not disciplined (able to entertain your mind in the meantime), then you're very likely to actually go through with it. That’s why these two qualities are so important, if you believe in the value of life.

But why should one believe life has value, if it came from some natural process other than God, and thus has no meaning?

And why shouldn't one just kill oneself? If it's all meaningless anyway . . .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

I don’t think so, but maybe that’s because our definitions of evil don’t match. Mine is about equal to sadism.

Goodie . Don't invite me over to your house any time then, for I'll feel free to steal from you at will! After all, there's nothing wrong with it!

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for the invitation back to the Philosophy Thread, Bombadillo. I don't feel I shall post there anymore, though. I might change my mind in the future, but for now I'm decided. My views on philosophy and religion blend together pretty much seamlessly at this moment, so I can't trust myself to avoid religion to everyone's satisfaction. I don't want to offend anyone or push the rules at all, so I think I'll just stay here, where I know I'm safe stating all my views rather than just some of them.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Well it was a mess, and the universe is probably a mess for that matter.

My point is that you looked at the paint and saw art. Perhaps you saw a mess too, but you also saw art. The majority of people would just see a mess, and wouldn't see art. Some would say you're crazy if you saw that as art . Usually when things are all thrown around randomly, it's just a mess that turns out and there's little or no art visible there. Certainly no beauty. Sometimes the odd person will see art and beauty in it, someone perhaps with a greater sense for art than the majority of people have . I think it's really cool that you saw art in the paint spill- that's a very good way of looking at it.

But when people look at many professional paintings, you don't have the difference of opinion where some people say it's art and some people say it's just a mess and there's no art visible there. You have the majority of people saying it is art, even if it's not to their taste. There are some exceptions. There is of course risque art where there's a lot of debate over whether it's really art or not, and then there is art that just looks to me like a bunch of splatters on a canvas , but which lots of others think is art. So there are differences of opinion about REAL art, art that doesn't spring from a random mess, but there is far broader consensus that it is real art people are looking at, that there is very real beauty there.

Now when we come to nature, there's virtually UNIVERSAL appreciation for this art among humans.

With random messes that turn out to be art, there's an enormous amount of dispute over whether it's art or not. With purposefully designed art (in the form of paintings, architecture or other) there's FAR greater consensus that it is art. And with the universe, there is essentially universal acknowledgement of the fact that it is beautiful. And ALMOST ALL of it is also acclaimed to be beautiful . The planets, the solar system, the waterfalls, the trees, the glades, the flowers, the sky, the clouds, the earth, the ocean, (most of) the wild animals.

There are of course some facts of nature that aren't so universally accepted as beautiful. But such an enormous prepronderance of nature is beautiful, and those parts of nature are so complex, it would have taken just very slight variations in those structures for them to turn out in ways that aren't beautiful.

Of course, some animals and plants use beauty as tools to achieve their ends, but visible light itself is beautiful, as are the planets, nebulae and solar systems! And the galaxies !

It's just utterly mindboggling how much beauty there is, and how easy it would have been for it to all be nonbeautiful. And it's universally accepted among humans as art.

Messes are rarely accepted as art. Sometimes they are accepted as art by people, but not often. Purposeful human-made professional art is a lot of the time accepted as art by people, but there is debate over many pieces. Nature is universally acclaimed as beautiful.

So we see a chain here, a ladder. On the lowest level are messes , for they rarely turn out to be art. On the second level is intentional art, which much more commonly is accepted as art, but still has a lot of dispute. And on the final level is the universe, which I would term "masterful art", as it is universally acclaimed as of enormous beauty by everyone.

"Masterful art" is not likely to spring from the lowest category of art- the mess.