Discussion Thread Number 5 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I must say I agree with most if not all of Val's points - I just can't see that many ships and the destruction of a town staying under the radar ... is there a way we can still get a fight in for those that want it?

YET AGAIN! About the NUMBER OF THE SHIPS.

‘For my part I heeded them not,’ said Gimli; ‘for we came then at last upon battle in earnest. There at Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count.

That's how a great invading fleet looks like. Compare it to TWELVE SMALL ships, with about 50 men in each going upriver. What "invading army" are you speaking about?

Originally Posted by Valandil

"First of all, placing things in the historical setting:
1. We don't have any evidence that Umbar would have had any kind of naval forces at this time. Please don't confuse the current Umbar with that at the end of the Third Age - for there was an infusion of naval power into Umbar following Gondor's Kin-strife, when Castamir's descendants led their followers to Umbar after Eldacar returned to re-claim Gondor's crown (all this in the mid 1400's). Castamir's passion had been for fleets, so we can surmise that this resulted in most of Gondor's fleets - likely unassailable since the times of the Ship Kings - being transferred to Umbar at this time. However - that's still a long way off. Of course - they might have had some sea power, so we could make that supposition.

NOBODY is confusing Umbar at the beginning of the Third Age with Umbar of Castamir or that of the end of the Third Age.

The relevant things will be the following:

1.Umbar was one of the two greatest havens of Numenoreans since 2280 Second Age. It was the haven of King's men, while Pelargir was the haven of the Faithful.

a. UT: "before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron's dominions"

b. LOTR Appendices :"TA 933 King Eärnil I takes Umbar, which becomes a fortress of Gondor". That means BEFORE that it was NOT a fortress of Gondor.

c. Silm: " And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin."
In this stoty it was Fuinur who sent the small fleet to Tharbad following the ML bidding

2. At the moment of the Downfall both Pelargir and Umbar were bound to have BIG fleets stationed there- certainly lots of small coastal vessels, that never travelled to Numenor and were kept in ME havens. There were bound to be shipyards aplenty as well.

3. Umbar was a great NATURAL haven - see in Silm: "the mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought."
Look at it on the map as well: it is quite well sheltered from the Sea, much better than Pelargir. So the destruction caused by the Downfall must have affected Umbar much less than Pelargir.

4.Both Umbarians and Gondoreans most probably continued building ships - at least coastal ships: Isildur escaped from Osgiliath by ship; Umbarians had to build ships to assure communication with numerous smaller havens south along the coast.

5.The building of GREAT navies and big seagoing ships in Gondor happened much later:

LOTR: "With Tarannon, the twelfth king, began the line of the Ship-kings, who built navies and extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the Mouths of Anduin. To commemorate his victories as Captain of the Hosts, Tarannon took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts'.
Eärnil I, his nephew, who succeeded him, repaired the ancient haven of Pelargir, and built a great navy. He laid siege by sea and land to Umbar, and took it, and it became a great harbour and fortress of the power of Gondor."

Originally Posted by Valandil

Even if Umbar did have some sea forces, the victory of the Alliance of Elves and Men over Sauron and his forces is within living memory. I don't think too many would be eager to take on Sauron's over-throwers at this point (and we don't know for sure which side Umbar fell on back then). I would think they would be VERY hesitant to launch any kind of risky attack like this.
I'm not sure how much influence the Nazgul would or could realistically wield at this point - especially from a distance. I'm not convinced they could persuade men to place themselves at risk like this.

There is evidence which side Umbar fell on back then - see above- and it is already a second time we are discussing it!
They wouldn't attack either Gondor or Arnor in force, and they didn't. Twelve small ships are no big deal. Sure, the captains take great risks, but they hope to be rewarded by big plunder. The expedition was proposed to them not by a nazgul, but by the Lord of Umbar, who remembers old alliances. After all, what is for him the loss of 12 small ships in case of defeat?

Originally Posted by Valandil

If there was a sea-power among the kingdoms of Men at this time, it was most likely Gondor, even though we're well before the first of the Ship Kings. For this fleet to sail toward Tharbad, they would have had to go right past Gondor. Another great risk - and I doubt Gondor would have allowed it.

there weere bound to be two active sea-powers - Gondor and Umbar. See my reasons above. And also: if Umbar had no fleet , what prevented Gondor to expand all along the coast to the South?

Sailing right past Gondor was not a small feat, of course, as even much later corsairs rarely went past Anfalas. But for small ships travelling by night, or further away from the coast and attacking nobody, it was feasible, I believe. But it was certainly unheard of before: that's why Arnor felt so secure.

Originally Posted by Valandil

I will put in place the mechanisms to allow me to discover when it will arrive.

Val, I bet the Valar also had some intelligence system and ways to know things, that mortals cannot have. But still they were taken by complete surprise by Morgoth and Ungoliant.
As well, can you give me ONE reason why the Eagles of Crissaeglir haven't warned the population of Gondolin of the approaching foes? If we reason as you do, there would NEVER be a single SURPRIZE attack!

Originally Posted by Valandil

I suggest we not have too many of these major military actions. If various Nazgul characters start calling in all their forces, and I have to respond by calling in more of Arnor's forces... that would just change the game so much. I think we've had a good time with the character-interaction. Do we want the game to shift away from that and toward the movements of armies?

No one is planning to shift towards the movement of armies. What I am still trying t persuade you to have is one night of fighting. Confusion. But Arnor forces rally and beat the corsairs. End.


We are not playing a war game. We are basically writing a common story. I don't see why two sides can't come to an agreement, instead of making warlike statements. And more: we are proposing new events to enliven the game. That is met by hostility - so what? Should we stagnate in our classes? What new ideas do you, FOGALS, propose?

I feel all I say is falling on DEAF EARS.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I meant not hacking people with swords, but just being there during the fight - running around and screaming in fright also counts.

Oh, that way.

And you forgot the theatrical fainting.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That's SO cute! Earniel, you're killin' me! It's "antics" - for a minute there, Viv was ALL interested - Lilly has antiques? Viv wants some! I love the rare but unique Earnielisms we get every once in a while.

Darn, that was silly of me.

*mutters* note to self: please STOP reading French texts before posting on the Entmoot, it screws up the spelling.

But I'm sure Lilly has some antiques somewhere, must have, she lived long enough to collect some.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

oh, that term makes more sense, because for people like our beloved sea-elf, I think it's a THIRD language!

Should have been third, but my French is too poor to be a decent second language.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And you forgot the theatrical fainting.

Yes we can have lots of theatrical fainting, crying, reflecting on past troubles and general angst.

Very interesting posts, Serenoli, Lotesse and CS

[Serenoli]

I agree with what Gordis said, it seems a harmless enough war, we can just fight it for the fun of it... but, of course if the attack never reached Tharbad, it would be rather dull!! I think the idea to enliven things up was very good. After all, what was the point of all those pages of war-skills we include in evry charcter bio, if we never see them use the skills?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

I agree with what Gordis said, it seems a harmless enough war, we can just fight it for the fun of it... but, of course if the attack never reached Tharbad, it would be rather dull!! I think the idea to enliven things up was very good. After all, what was the point of all those pages of war-skills we include in evry charcter bio, if we never see them use the skills?

I am glad you agree with me, Serenoli. If things are going the way they are EXPECTED to go, it will never make a good story. All the Silm is full of surprize attacks on people (or even on "Powers"!) who surely had to have ways to get a warning in advance. For a good story both sides should make mistakes, or be careless at times.

Will there be the LOTR story ,if Gandalf has not been careless? If he had "figured out" the Ring in time, secured Gollum at once, didn't go to Orthank, but directly to the Shire? Or if he used Eagles to carry Frodo to Orodruin?

Or on the other hand, would there be a good story if the Nine, who sensed the Ring keenly, after all, had seized it in the Shire?

Otherwise, without these mistakes and failings, a story is not a story, but a train timetable.

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with Gordis and Serenoli. The FOGALS have put to us, FOEADS, lots of conditions: don't kill any of the characters, don't burn Tharbad, let us have some warning... ALL of them were accepted.
But now all the agreements are shaken: we can't have a fight in Tharbad! Because the King is against!

Well, Val, you may be King in the game, but sorry you are not one in RL.

Let us VOTE.

I am for the fight in Tharbad!

[Serenoli]

Me, too. War, WAR, WAR!! I'm tired of peace...

CS, good last post. I have posted a reply post where Tol explains all to Buz. BTW, where is Viv? Haven't seen her for a while, and she needs to know also. I know Tol will soon go back to the Uni to get his stuff, maybe he can see Viv on way back. Or maybe Lily or Buz can fill her in while he's gone. I hope not Lily, though, cos she'll definitely poison Viv's mind against my poor Tol!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

YET AGAIN! About the NUMBER OF THE SHIPS. ...

Keep your hair on!!!

and re-read what I said. All I was saying was that I didn't see how that many ships plus the burning/looting of a town could stay under the radar, given that Val is a reasonable king with reasonable lines of information I'm not saying to can the fight - I'm saying that IMO, it might be REASONABLE to scale it down if you want to claim that they are going to arrive undetected.

What I am still trying t persuade you to have is one night of fighting. Confusion. But Arnor forces rally and beat the corsairs. End.

And I"m trying to work with you to make it work while keeping it reasonable, in the opinions of those involved.

I don't see why two sides can't come to an agreement, instead of making warlike statements. And more: we are proposing new events to enliven the game. That is met by hostility - so what?

I don't think warlike statement are being made, except in the light of "this is what my character, the king, would already have in place for warlike situations." It's not hostility, IMO.

I feel all I say is falling on DEAF EARS.

If it were falling on deaf ears, you would hear "no - period." As it is, we're trying to take your idea and fit it in with what we know about our characters and what we know about other things It sounds fun, but it IS a pretty major event, and it DOES mainly affect the king of the realm that is being attacked, so I think Val should be allowed a pretty large say in it. Or he could NOT tell you what lines of defenses he has, and just write a post where all the defenses he has in place but are not common knowledge (and rightly so) come in and crush the fleet before it gets to within spitting distance of Tharbad. Val is working WITH you by telling you what he feels a king would have in place, because your storyline affects more than your characters.

Originally Posted by CS

I agree with Gordis and Serenoli. The FOGALS have put to us, FOEADS, lots of conditions: don't kill any of the characters, don't burn Tharbad, let us have some warning... ALL of them were accepted.
But now all the agreements are shaken: we can't have a fight in Tharbad! Because the King is against!

that's not the reason; see above. And the "don't kill any of the characters" is not a condition that FOGALS impose, it's something that binds us ALL. It's not fair for you guys to say a bunch of pirates will waltz into Tharbad past all the king's defenses, or they come to Tharbad because there AREN'T any defenses, without OKing that with the king involved. It's only fair to let him state what defenses he DOES have in place, so you can work around them - as I said, he could just write a post saying his defenses wiped out the pirates before they got anywhere, and that would impose on you guys the same way that you're trying to impose on him.

Let's have the fight, but let's work together - NO ONE should be able to impose on what the authors feel that other people's characters would reasonably do, and to say that a fleet of pirates can just sail into Tharbad undetected, after razing a town, is saying that Val's character is a helpless idiot, IMO. Let's grant that his character is a reasonable king. We're already granting you FOEADS a LOT of latitude by being undetected.

[CrazySquirrel]

Serenoli, Awesome post. You portray Tol very well, really. And that's exactly the way I see Buz, a nice guy, all told and, well, perpetually drunk because of Lil .
Loved it, especially :

And it was the truth... almost. He did not mention that he and Lily had almost kissed, partly because he had no wish to give the jealous Penny any reason to suspect him... but mostly because he did not wish to admit the fact, even to himself

HEEHEE, so it worked...

And GREAT Post Sun-Star. Our secret service man, always on guard!
That's nice to see old Estelmo back. By the way, wasn't he going to see his old buddy Ilmenzor some time this week, to talk of good old times?

The end of your post is wonderful - foreshadowing things to happen...
Post more often, PLEASE!

[Rían]

Just came back to clarify a point - you guys can say that a pirate fleet is sailing up the river, and that is TOTALLY in your jurisdiction - BUT - it is NOT in your jurisdiction to say that they got past all the king's defenses/lines of intelligence, or that there are no defenses/lines of intelligence, because the defenses are NOT in the jurisdiction of your characters. Do you see what I mean? You'll need to strike up an agreement with the HOLDER of the defenses/lines of intelligence.

You don't need my OK with this, because my characters have nothing to do with the defenses of the kingdom or its methods of gathering intelligence. (You WOULD need my OK if you wanted to have some pirate carry Rian off and have her fall madly in love with him, though!) But to proceed with integrity, you DO need to come to an agreement with the king and other military people as to what their intelligence would and would not detect, IMO. We ARE working with you

[CrazySquirrel]

Rian, please, let Val fight his own battles. He has escaped the tutelage of the Queen-mother after all .

Better you tell for everybofdy to understand:

Do you vote for a battle in Tharbad itself, or against?

[Grey_Wolf]

#760 slightly changed, hope it'll do there not having been any battle yet, and no decision as to when.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Rian, please, let Val fight his own battles. He has escaped the tutelage of the Queen-mother after all .

I'll say what I want to say and I think it is a battle that concerns us ALL. I'm not fighting his battles; I'd work for ANYONE that I think is not being understood and you guys aren't understanding what I'm saying, too. Val is away on a long weekend with his wife and won't be back on until Tuesday. Do you want to wait until then to resolve things, or should we try to work on resolving them now? I think the latter option is wiser and that's what I'm doing. And the better we understand each other, the better it is for the rpg.

It's clear from your posts that several of you FOEADs misunderstand the objections we FOGALs are making, and I'm trying to clear them up because I happen to be online. Your desire to have pirates sail up to Tharbad for a little fight says something about a character that you do NOT own!; namely, Valandil the king who is in charge of defense/intelligence for the kingdom. And I don't think ANYONE has a right to define what anyone else's character would do. That's why I wouldn't write that Rian walked up to Lilly and they became best friends. I'd check with you first before writing something about how YOUR character would act, and I think you guys should give the same courtesy to Val, because the way it stands, YOU GUYS are saying that VAL'S CHARACTER is an incompetent king, and I don't think you guys have the right to do that.

Better you tell for everybofdy to understand:

Do you vote for a battle in Tharbad itself, or against?

You can read my post #348 for that answer - I already stated my opinion quite clearly in that post and in several others.

To Gordis - hang in there, I think we can get you this fight, but it will take a bit of work to work out in a way that is fair to all

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I'll say what I want to say and I think it is a battle that concerns us ALL ...You can read my post for that answer - I already stated my opinion

If it is a question that concerns us ALL, then everyone is entitled to express his opinion.

I have expressed mine. You avoided the question.

Do YOU want the battle to happen in Tharbad, or do you want the fleet never reach the city?

Please, give a plain answer.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I have expressed mine. You avoided the question.

I didn't avoid the question, and I don't appreciate your attitude, either. I've already answered the question. You clearly don't read my posts ( back to you ) I again refer you to post #348 where I clearly answered.

So do you (and others) understand what I'm saying about how this matter says something about a character that you don't own?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

#760 slightly changed, hope it'll do there not having been any battle yet, and no decision as to when.

*goes and reads it*
I like it better, GW I think too much munching of people inside the city will cause general alarm that we don't want yet.

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I didn't avoid the question, and I don't appreciate your attitude, either. I've already answered the question. You clearly don't read my posts ( back to you ) I again refer you to post #348 where I clearly answered.

So do you (and others) understand what I'm saying about how this matter says something about a character that you don't own?

Basically you will do what Val says. OK, so be it.

Interesting, did Morgoth ask Turgon's permission before attacking Gondolin?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by CS

Basically you will do what Val says. OK, so be it.

geez, CS, why don't you stop putting words in my mouth. That's really insulting.

Here's what I said in that post that I keep referring to: "Let's have the fight, but let's work together..."

Here's what I just said to Gordis: "hang in there, I think we can get you this fight, but it will take a bit of work to work out in a way that is fair to all."


Or if you want, go ahead and start the fleet to Tharbad without discussion.
Then Val can write "but they didn't know that 10,000 soldiers just happened to be camping right before Tharbad and they killed all the pirates."
Then you guys can write "but they didn't know that the pirates had some mysterious instant plague that killed all the soldiers but the pirates were immune to."
Then Val can write "but the soldiers were able to fight as ghosts (LOTR canon!) and killed all the pirates."
Then you guys can write "but the Chancellor said spells that immobilized the ghosts"
Then I can write "but Rian ran up to the Chancellor right before he said the spell and started kissing him, and he was lost in his love for her, and never said the spell."
on and on ad nauseum....


or we can respect and work with each other and how we view our characters

And about Gondolin - Morgoth couldn't attack Gondolin for hundreds of years. Shall we say that you guys can attack in a few hundred years? Come on, all we're trying to do is keep it realistic and get EVERYONE'S opinion on what is realistic in relation to their characters.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that the battle is a good idea, but let's not make the decision into an argument that results in the temporary or permanent closing of our RPG. I think there should be some warning of the invading forces, otherwise to much damage will be cause.

Val, you could say, when asked, that as king you should be where the fighting is/will be, not running away from.

[The last sane person]

I am for the fight.

I just am having trouble adjusting to it. It wont take a great army to do some sneak attack damage. A small force of able bodied pirates can certanily cause mayham.

BY THE WAY. Shah and his men are going to have to do some boat hopping in order to get back to the right side of the river. I am going to give you FOEAD people chances to WOUND THEM (not kill them).

Lotesse Could you have Viv find her boy-toy wounded in the wreckage? I think that would clench the trouble and help us later on down the road.