Multi-culturalism boon or bane? - Page 18

***Rían*** · 10-02-2010, 12:26 AM

Hey, I guess that one's making the rounds - I just took it on another forum

(and got a perfect score

)

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-02-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Hey, Gwai, have a little mercy on us poor benighted heretics- the latest Pew quiz on religion shows that 40% of Catholics themselves don't understand the miracle of Holy Communion.

Atheists and agnostics scored highest.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog...ding_religion/

Take the quiz (warning- one question is almost a trick- I answered it wrong at first, but went back and corrected it before submitting, leaving with a perfect score -pride is the devil's favourite sin )

http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us...edge/index.php

Oh, everyone knows Catholics are uneducated and unintelligent. Why else would they be Catholic? I would have thought more of the informed seculars.

On a more serious note, since this seems to be the anything goes thread these days, it seems an appropriate place for these moving words from Ellen DeGeneres, about the tragic death of Tyler Clementi.

GrayMouser · 10-02-2010, 12:56 AM

And, in balance, the atheist quiz- a little Americocentric.

http://allthingswildlyconsidered.blo...l#comment-form

Grey_Wolf · 10-02-2010, 10:07 AM

In the past there were shamans and magically talented women. Then there were still a sort of unity in the will to heal and mend wounded and hurt people.

This changed with the advent of Christianity and Islam. The women were prosecuted but the men were not.

Powerhungry, greedy, religiously fanatic, war-mongering men have made the world into what it is today and the same kind of individuals are still running the world.

These persistant, quite mad, individuals wanted to steam-roll the belief that there is only one god and whether it is Allah or simply God, the result was the same.

People who had no interest in either variant of the entity was pressured and tortured because they would not relent and let themselves be herded into Christianity or Islam.

The Celts are a prime example. The Romans and their decendants, after they had abandoned their gods, was of the opinion that they must save the world from the evils of paganism.

Little did they ponder the will of the people who practiced their rites and ceremonies as they had done since time immemorial.

No, it was a question of taking it and not leaving it if you wanted to stay alive, which is an atrocious proposition for someone who has, as stated, no interest whatsoever in converting to this new belief.

Wars and atrocities has been and in many ways still are being perpetrated upon people percieved as being unrelenting and unteachable as regards to the mistaken belief that the religion of the perpetrators is the only acceptable one and everything else is herecy.

As long as these aforementioned men are running the world this will continue. There is no use in imagining a peaceful co-existance between the peoples of the world as long as the current power-structure is in place.

***Earniel*** · 10-02-2010, 10:50 AM

Merged into Multiculturalism thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

In the past there were shamans and magically talented women. Then there were still a sort of unity in the will to heal and mend wounded and hurt people.

I think that's a very idealised view of the past. Shamans and figures from early religions could just as easily have been powerhungry, greedy, religiously fanatic, war-mongering people. These early societies did not necessarily give equal rights based on sex, origin, or any other aspect. Nor did they necessarily live in harmony with each other or nature.

Quote:

The Celts are a prime example. The Romans and their decendants, after they had abandoned their gods, was of the opinion that they must save the world from the evils of paganism.

Hm, bad example, I think. And very oversimplified. The spread of christianity among the Celts off the mainland for starters was not always forceful or brutal. Sometimes both old and new religions lived side by side for a time. On top of that the early Celtic Church in Ireland had rather decent laws that even allowed women to divorce and get an allowance from their ex-husband.

inked · 10-05-2010, 08:16 PM

The state of Minnesota and multiculturalism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0vIt...layer_embedded

What will happen?

What should happen?

For extra credit, class, describe the dynamics of your answers to the above.

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-05-2010, 11:38 PM

I'm wondering why Judaism gets a free pass. It is also noteworthy that Christianity, at least in its early stages when it was entering into the Greco-Roman world, in fact provided a number of benefits to women. EDIT: To the other GW.

GrayMouser · 10-06-2010, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inked

The state of Minnesota and multiculturalism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0vIt...layer_embedded

What will happen?

What should happen?

For extra credit, class, describe the dynamics of your answers to the above.

The case of the Somali cab-drivers was settled on appeal two years ago, when a law was upheld that any cabbie refusing to take a fare without good reason would be suspended. A quick Google/Yahoo search hasn't revealed any stories since 2008- do you have anything more recent?

My attitude to the Muslims refusing to handle pork or carry alcohol or dogs is the same as my reaction to pharmacists refusing to fill birth-control or morning-after prescriptions: if you can't fulfill the requirements of the job due to religious objections, find another job.

As to the khat (which I've chewed in Kenya) how dare those foreigners stick to their traditonal mild stimulants instead of switching to good All-American narcotics like alcohol, tobacco, pot, cocaine, or heroin ?

You know who else smuggles traditional drugs into your country? Taiwanese betel-nut chewers!

It's almost as if you're out there desperately looking for something to be offended by.

inked · 10-07-2010, 11:21 PM

Hmm, I believe they came here and maintaining separatist societies and trying to get by with it rather than acculturating was the point. I note that certain wide-open societies in Europe are seeing the folly of their ways on these matters whilst others are contemplating the introduction of sharia to accomodate further. Status in yours?

GrayMouser · 10-10-2010, 07:28 AM

Actually, the Muslim immigrant population in my town has tripled in the last two years- the shawarma stand did so well that Khabir brought his brother and cousin down to help. If this demographic trend continues....

Insidious Rex · 10-12-2010, 02:26 PM

Well GM you know what they say about minorities in large numbers... One minority on the corner is a defiance. Two is a meeting. Three is a gang. Someone call 911...

GrayMouser · 10-12-2010, 08:56 PM

I know of some immigrant groups in my community who maintain separatist societies and insist on special privileges for their foreign traditions....me, for example. Like many Westerners in Taiwan, I insist on having Christmas off every year, even though it's not a holiday, forcing my employers to accomodate my traditional beliefs, just like the anti-bacon handlers in Minnesota.

On a more serious level, I belonged to a group of foreign fathers married to Taiwanese women who led a long and eventually successful struggle to gain citizenship rights for our children, even though that was in violation of thousands of years of Chinese culture which only traces lineage through paternal descent. We lobbied, demonstrated, tried to bring pressure from
our home governments, and caught a lot of flak on the "love it or leave it" ground from local conservatives.

GrayMouser · 10-12-2010, 09:03 PM

What would you do to an immigrant group that caused a tripling of crime and a seven-fold increase in murders in a space of seven years? or a tripling of welfare exenditure?

A group that had its own customs, often languages, lived in its own neighborhoods, had its own religion which was opposed to the very principles of the US Constitution, insisted their children could not marry other Americans outside their faith, and gave allegiance to a foreign dictator?

I refer, of course, to Catholics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

Gwaimir Windgem · 10-12-2010, 09:35 PM

Yes, hello!

Oh, did we do that?

GrayMouser · 10-12-2010, 11:29 PM

Yea- and the response was far more violent than anything against the Muslims- so far, anyway.

The biggest massacre ever instigated by the KKK was against Italian Catholic immigrants, not blacks, but there was plenty of anti-Catholic violence to go round. In the Mid-West, Catholics were more of a target of the Klan than African-Americans.

GrayMouser · 10-12-2010, 11:57 PM

Though it's true Europe seems to have a greater problem integrating its Muslim population- higher numbers, from a more uneducated and lower-skilled group, closer contacts with the homeland.

So, yea, if they feel comfortable slowing down the numbers, fine.

The Gaffer · 10-13-2010, 03:26 AM

The problem with that is that it's bad for business, as well as being inhumane.

inked · 10-13-2010, 06:15 PM

Notice the claim being made:

"ethicist Dr Leslie Cannold writing in the (Sydney) Sun-Herald. ‘Opponents of dying with dignity will tell you that the core moral principle in a civilized society is respect for life. This is outdated tosh. The central moral value in a modern multicultural society is autonomy, the right of individuals to determine the course of their own lives and deaths according to their own needs and values.’ "

Is this a correct assessment of the "central moral value in a modern multicultural society"?

Consider well the words "individuals" and "society". Is there a link if Cannold is correct?

The Gaffer · 10-13-2010, 06:37 PM

No, it isn't.

inked · 10-14-2010, 08:27 AM

Hey, remember the outrage over the Florida guy and "Burn a Koran Day" that NEVER HAPPENED?

What about this? http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...#ixzz12DcmBJM1

Goose/Gander? Gander/Goose? Gander/Gander? Goose/Goose?

I'm waiting for Obama to weigh in on this like the other. And everyone else!

10-02-2010, 12:26 AM	#341
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Hey, I guess that one's making the rounds - I just took it on another forum (and got a perfect score ) __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

10-02-2010, 12:56 AM	#343
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	And, in balance, the atheist quiz- a little Americocentric. http://allthingswildlyconsidered.blo...l#comment-form __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-02-2010, 10:07 AM	#344
Grey_Wolf Elf Lord Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mirkwood, well actually I live in North-west Scania, Sweden Posts: 9,481	Wars, famine, poverty and other man-made catastrophies In the past there were shamans and magically talented women. Then there were still a sort of unity in the will to heal and mend wounded and hurt people. This changed with the advent of Christianity and Islam. The women were prosecuted but the men were not. Powerhungry, greedy, religiously fanatic, war-mongering men have made the world into what it is today and the same kind of individuals are still running the world. These persistant, quite mad, individuals wanted to steam-roll the belief that there is only one god and whether it is Allah or simply God, the result was the same. People who had no interest in either variant of the entity was pressured and tortured because they would not relent and let themselves be herded into Christianity or Islam. The Celts are a prime example. The Romans and their decendants, after they had abandoned their gods, was of the opinion that they must save the world from the evils of paganism. Little did they ponder the will of the people who practiced their rites and ceremonies as they had done since time immemorial. No, it was a question of taking it and not leaving it if you wanted to stay alive, which is an atrocious proposition for someone who has, as stated, no interest whatsoever in converting to this new belief. Wars and atrocities has been and in many ways still are being perpetrated upon people percieved as being unrelenting and unteachable as regards to the mistaken belief that the religion of the perpetrators is the only acceptable one and everything else is herecy. As long as these aforementioned men are running the world this will continue. There is no use in imagining a peaceful co-existance between the peoples of the world as long as the current power-structure is in place. Last edited by Grey_Wolf : 10-02-2010 at 10:08 AM.

10-05-2010, 08:16 PM	#346
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	The state of Minnesota and multiculturalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0vIt...layer_embedded What will happen? What should happen? For extra credit, class, describe the dynamics of your answers to the above. __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-05-2010, 11:38 PM	#347
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	I'm wondering why Judaism gets a free pass. It is also noteworthy that Christianity, at least in its early stages when it was entering into the Greco-Roman world, in fact provided a number of benefits to women. EDIT: To the other GW. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 10-05-2010 at 11:39 PM.

10-07-2010, 11:21 PM	#349
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Hmm, I believe they came here and maintaining separatist societies and trying to get by with it rather than acculturating was the point. I note that certain wide-open societies in Europe are seeing the folly of their ways on these matters whilst others are contemplating the introduction of sharia to accomodate further. Status in yours? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-07-2010 at 11:21 PM. Reason: speelin' as usual

10-10-2010, 07:28 AM	#350
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Actually, the Muslim immigrant population in my town has tripled in the last two years- the shawarma stand did so well that Khabir brought his brother and cousin down to help. If this demographic trend continues.... __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-12-2010, 02:26 PM	#351
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Well GM you know what they say about minorities in large numbers... One minority on the corner is a defiance. Two is a meeting. Three is a gang. Someone call 911... __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

10-12-2010, 08:56 PM	#352
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	I know of some immigrant groups in my community who maintain separatist societies and insist on special privileges for their foreign traditions....me, for example. Like many Westerners in Taiwan, I insist on having Christmas off every year, even though it's not a holiday, forcing my employers to accomodate my traditional beliefs, just like the anti-bacon handlers in Minnesota. On a more serious level, I belonged to a group of foreign fathers married to Taiwanese women who led a long and eventually successful struggle to gain citizenship rights for our children, even though that was in violation of thousands of years of Chinese culture which only traces lineage through paternal descent. We lobbied, demonstrated, tried to bring pressure from our home governments, and caught a lot of flak on the "love it or leave it" ground from local conservatives. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-12-2010, 09:03 PM	#353
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	What would you do to an immigrant group that caused a tripling of crime and a seven-fold increase in murders in a space of seven years? or a tripling of welfare exenditure? A group that had its own customs, often languages, lived in its own neighborhoods, had its own religion which was opposed to the very principles of the US Constitution, insisted their children could not marry other Americans outside their faith, and gave allegiance to a foreign dictator? I refer, of course, to Catholics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 10-12-2010 at 09:13 PM.

10-12-2010, 09:35 PM	#354
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yes, hello! Oh, did we do that? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

10-12-2010, 11:29 PM	#355
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Yea- and the response was far more violent than anything against the Muslims- so far, anyway. The biggest massacre ever instigated by the KKK was against Italian Catholic immigrants, not blacks, but there was plenty of anti-Catholic violence to go round. In the Mid-West, Catholics were more of a target of the Klan than African-Americans. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 10-12-2010 at 11:39 PM.

10-12-2010, 11:57 PM	#356
GrayMouser Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ilha Formosa Posts: 2,068	Though it's true Europe seems to have a greater problem integrating its Muslim population- higher numbers, from a more uneducated and lower-skilled group, closer contacts with the homeland. So, yea, if they feel comfortable slowing down the numbers, fine. __________________ Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill

10-13-2010, 03:26 AM	#357
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	The problem with that is that it's bad for business, as well as being inhumane.

10-13-2010, 06:15 PM	#358
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Notice the claim being made: "ethicist Dr Leslie Cannold writing in the (Sydney) Sun-Herald. ‘Opponents of dying with dignity will tell you that the core moral principle in a civilized society is respect for life. This is outdated tosh. The central moral value in a modern multicultural society is autonomy, the right of individuals to determine the course of their own lives and deaths according to their own needs and values.’ " Is this a correct assessment of the "central moral value in a modern multicultural society"? Consider well the words "individuals" and "society". Is there a link if Cannold is correct? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

10-13-2010, 06:37 PM	#359
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	No, it isn't.

10-14-2010, 08:27 AM	#360
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Hey, remember the outrage over the Florida guy and "Burn a Koran Day" that NEVER HAPPENED? What about this? http://www.nypost.com/p/news/interna...#ixzz12DcmBJM1 Goose/Gander? Gander/Goose? Gander/Gander? Goose/Goose? I'm waiting for Obama to weigh in on this like the other. And everyone else! __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941