Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[Dúnedain]

Also, those PoW's that we do have, have not been seen on photo's or TV. It's a fine line, but that is what makes one country in violation and the other not...

[Dunadan]

I think the original idea was that southern Iraq would capitulate, with the people of Basra in particular coming over to the Coalition side. Clearly, that hasn't happened; they haven't even secured Umm Qasr.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We need to draw Hussein's troops out into the open. Encourage them to leave Baghdad and attack us more in the open. I'm not sure how to do that exactly - I'm just saying what the best scenario would be.

I don't think you're alone in that: I don't think the generals know how to do it either. Would you come out if you were an Iraqi Ba'ath type? Clearly, the only way to fight the Coalition is to wage a guerilla war while hoping the body count gets too much for the voters back home.

What I can't believe is that the whole Coalition strategy was based on the assumption that Saddam's regime would somehow implode after a few days. If it was, then it ranks alongside WW1 for utter stupidity of top brass.

At the moment, I can't see it being resolved without them having to get down to street fighting through Baghdad. If that happens, these first few days will seem like a picnic.

d.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dunadan
I think the original idea was that southern Iraq would capitulate, with the people of Basra in particular coming over to the Coalition side. Clearly, that hasn't happened; they haven't even secured Umm Qasr.

You left out a key part of my scenario which is required for that to happen. We need to get the humantarian aid in. The first day - the towns welcomed our troops in with cheers and hugs. The next day they were asking we're the humantarian aid is - because they're starving.

Also - Hussein sent Republican Guards down to those cities to make it dfficult to secure the area - after we had gone in there.

I don't think you're alone in that: I don't think the generals know how to do it either. Would you come out if you were an Iraqi Ba'ath type? Clearly, the only way to fight the Coalition is to wage a guerilla war while hoping the body count gets too much for the voters back home.

We're going to be supposedly doing ground fighting against the Republican Guard today. It'll be messy - but we need to do this.

What I can't believe is that the whole Coalition strategy was based on the assumption that Saddam's regime would somehow implode after a few days. If it was, then it ranks alongside WW1 for utter stupidity of top brass.

Again - Hussein would lose control if we could get the humanitarian aid flowing. Right now - they look at us as occupying force.

At the moment, I can't see it being resolved without them having to get down to street fighting through Baghdad. If that happens, these first few days will seem like a picnic.

It's not going to be a picnic. I never really thought it was. With the initial bombing I was hoping we killed Hussein. It is still questionable if we did or not. All Iraq has shown so far are TAPED statements from Hussein.

I also think, as I told my father yesterday - it's only the 4th day and I was always thinking it would take at least a month - two weeks if EVERYTHING went perfectly. On Thursday and Friday - everything looked like it was going perfectly. Sunday - everything fell apart. It's not the end though - it's only the beginning. You learn by your mistakes and hopefully the military will learn by some of these mistakes.

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You left out a key part of my scenario which is required for that to happen. We need to get the humantarian aid in. The first day - the towns welcomed our troops in with cheers and hugs. The next day they were asking we're the humantarian aid is - because they're starving.

Yes, that's why they particularly need Umm Qasr.

I'd like to think it'll be all over in a month, but I'm not so hopeful. When they do finally clear out the Republican Guard from Basra, they'll have 2 million starving people to feed, making it difficult to concentrate on hunting down guerillas. That, too, is part of Saddam's tactic of using our own morality against us.

[Dúnedain]

Well with Basrah and Umm Qasr, we do control the cities it is just little pockets on the outskirts from what I am reading/seeing where the resistance is. Looks as though, from the latest news though that they are both close to be completely secured, which is big, especially in Basrah, because then we can bring in the aid...

[Elvellon]

First of all the US isn't in violation and this is why. Those Iraqi's that you saw were not Prisoners of War, they were soldiers that surrendered willingly. We didn't take and capture them, they are being detained as they surrendered. PoW and someone who Surrender's are very different....

That is very true. PoWs are only people who aren't willingly giving themselves up and are captured. The soldiers we showed had surrendered - without even firing a shot. Also - we don't show the intergations - like Iraq was doing.

I don’t think so. If you don’t call PoWs to enemy soldiers in custody, then what would you call them? What rights do they have and under what convention?

I would point out two things:

First, there is a state of war between the coalition powers and Iraq. This means that military prisoners taken from the other side should automatically be considered PoWs, and will remain so for as long as they are kept in custody.

Second, the act of surrender is always willing. If you are not willing, you can’t surrender, you will be fighting. You may be captured if you are incapacitated to fight, but then you haven’t surrendered at all. Nevertheless you become a PoW as a consequence.

As an example, I would recall that, during WW2, for instance, when several Allied units surrendered willingly to the Japanese they were considered PoWs and the mistreatment they received was seen under that light, other examples could be given.

I would like to further point out that, by your reasoning, if an American soldier is ambushed by Iraqis and forced to surrender without a fight, he shouldn’t be considered a PoW, and would not be under the protection of the Convention, something that strikes me as unacceptable, unless you have a better solution for this.

As for the public interrogation of captives, yes you didn’t do it, nor did anyone claim that you did.

[Elvellon]

I’ve just found in the Net the article pertaining to the status of prisoner of war
According with the 4th Article of the Third Geneva Convention we know that:

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
Etc.

You can see the Convention here
You may notice that there isn’t any reference to the way the prisoner have fallen into the hands of the their enemy.

[Aeryn]

Okay....


Forget JUST the A bomb

Let's do all the alphabetical bombs....

And on impact...

Everyone can sing...

a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y and z now I bombed my local Hussein next time won't you...give the f*ck up?

Yeah--that's a great idea...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elvellon

You can see the Convention here
You may notice that there isn’t any reference to the way the prisoner have fallen into the hands of the their enemy.

You will notice however that throughout the points - it says VOLUNTEER. Many of those people have been forced to fight. Hussein has gone so far as to send Republican Guards and other people who he trusts to threaten them to fight - or risk torture and death.

Does that still mean they are POW? Or actually being protected from the atrocities of Hussein??? One person said he drove all the way from Baghdad to southern Iraq just to give him self up.

[Coney]

lol.....the Americans can't complain about prisoners.....

What about the Afghanistan prisoners held in South America?

Held as Al Quiada prisoners(who the US say they are at war with), yet under interanational law they are held illegally if they were POW's......the US won't proclaim them as POW yet after 18 months they still refuse to try them as civilian prisoners

Humanitarian????.....don't make me laugh

[Starr Polish]

I just received an e-mail forward from my father that ENRAGED ME! This is the second time it's happened.

While I agree in part with a very small bit of what the e-mail said (I believe immigrants should accomadate themselves to American culture a bit, at least to the point where they know some English if they plan on being in the public eye, since it is the most common language) the following is what has me fuming:

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every! citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so.
But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

So, basically it's saying "You have the right of freedom of speech, but if you're complaining and I dont like it, you should leave if you weren't born here." And though this is "OUR" country, in a way, the US is meant to be a melting pot of culture. There is no one "American culture". There are major differences from the cultures of the South, Midwest, the Northeast and the West. Also, I think one of the beauties of the country is that we are (supposedly) allowed to complain about the government.

If I hadn't gotten this from my father, I wouldn't think twice about sending this person a scalding e-mail. As it is, I may still tell him what I think of it.

[What's worse is he is ALWAYS complaining about how things are being run in the government, especiall the local government. ARG!]

[Aeryn]

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every! citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so.

I don't know how that offends you, it's true. People complain about how americans do things, but they aren't americans. And if they ARE americans they need to stop being innactive and try to DO something about it. A petition something, don't just sit on your lardass and talk.

Like Michael Moore. *Note ironic disgusted scalding sarcasm (yes, all that at once)*

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
lol.....the Americans can't complain about prisoners.....

What about the Afghanistan prisoners held in South America?

Held as Al Quiada prisoners, yet under interanational law they are held illegally......they US won't proclaim thems as POW yet after 18 months they still refuse to try them as civilian prisoners

Humanitarian????.....don't make me laugh

First of all they're not in South America - their in Guantamano Bay Cuba. Second - the prisoners in Afganistan are not fighting for a country - they are suspected terrorists. Thirdly - even though we have no declared them as POWs - they are still given their pray time and they still are given a muslim diet. Do you think that if an Arab country captured a Jewish combatant - that they would let them practice their religion or give them Kosher food???

Contrary to your thoughts - the prisoners in Cuba are not held illegally. Also - 19 were released this weekend.

One additional thing - in 1991 - even though our prisoners were displayed on Iraqi TV - they raped the female soldier, they broke the soldiers arms, they had them do interviews with guns to their heads for Iraqi TV.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Coney
lol.....the Americans can't complain about prisoners.....

What about the Afghanistan prisoners held in South America?

Held as Al Quiada prisoners(who the US say they are at war with), yet under interanational law they are held illegally if they were POW's......the US won't proclaim them as POW yet after 18 months they still refuse to try them as civilian prisoners

Humanitarian????.....don't make me laugh

Drink another one.

[Starr Polish]

Originally posted by Aeryn
I don't know how that offends you, it's true. People complain about how americans do things, but they aren't americans. And if they ARE americans they need to stop being innactive and try to DO something about it. A petition something, don't just sit on your lardass and talk.

Like Michael Moore. *Note ironic disgusted scalding sarcasm (yes, all that at once)*

I agree, they should try to get up and do something about it, and though I support our government, we do still have the right to complain. And it bugs me to no end about how extremely hypocritical my father is being as well.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Aeryn
I don't know how that offends you, it's true. People complain about how americans do things, but they aren't americans. And if they ARE americans they need to stop being innactive and try to DO something about it. A petition something, don't just sit on your lardass and talk.

Like Michael Moore. *Note ironic disgusted scalding sarcasm (yes, all that at once)*

I agree. My family came over here from various countries only 3 -4 generations ago. One of the big problems is that people feel that American culture should conform to the what they left behind. That's not true. They have right to practice their religion, a practive to celebrate their holidays and the right to dress as they choice. They do not have a right to take away the culture which thousands of AMERICANS have fought for. If they come to this country to be American - then be AMERICAN or get the hell out.

Adding this because you replied while I was posting....

I agree, they should try to get up and do something about it, and though I support our government, we do still have the right to complain. And it bugs me to no end about how extremely hypocritical my father is being as well.

That did not say anything what so ever about the government - it said about the culture of America. Complainging about our flag waving and our Uncle Sam and our patriotism has nothign to do with the government - it has to do with who we are as a country. If people don't like our patriotism - then they can leave.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
First of all their not in South America - their in Guantamano Bay Cuba. Second - the prisoners in Afganistan are not fighting for a country - they are suspected terrorists. Thirdly - even though we have no declared them as POWs - they are still given their pray time and they still are given a muslim diet. Do you think that if an Arab country captured a Jewish combatant - that they would let them practice their religion or give them Kosher food???

Contrary to your thoughts - the prisoners in Cuba are not held illegally. Also - 19 were released this weekend.

If they are not held as POW's and if they are not civilian prisoners then why have they not been either released or tried?

They may be given prayer time and a diet that meets their religious beliefs.....but why are they caged, shackled and transported on carts like animals?

Amnesty international has been petitioning these men (and they are human) for the last nine months (the time a normal civilian has to have served as a maximum before he must face trial or be released). The prisoners in Cuba are being held illegally.....except for the law that is beheld by the US ...... if the US sees itself above the international law.....fine, but it shouldn't call on the international law to protect it's own people.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
They do not have a right to take away the culture which thousands of AMERICANS have fought for. If they come to this country to be American - then be AMERICAN or get the hell out.

and what is "american" again? just remind me i seem to have forgotten. Oh and how are immigrants taking away our culture?

and that last sentence reminds me of the joke about the bigot who gets upset at a hispanic for speaking spanish around him and demands he "learn to speak american damit! Its this lands native language! learn it or get out!" and the guy next to him says "hmm doesnt sounds like you dont know much cherokee either." which leads me back to my first question again: what is an american?

[Aeryn]

IR--You confuse me to no end

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
If they are not held as POW's and if they are not civilian prisoners then why have they not been either released or tried?

They may be given prayer time and a diet that meets their religious beliefs.....but why are they caged, shackled and transported on carts like animals?

Amnesty international has been petitioning these men (and they are human) for the last nine months (the time a normal civilian has to have served as a maximum before he must face trial or be released). The prisoners in Cuba are being held illegally.....except for the law that is beheld by the US ...... if the US sees itself above the international law.....fine, but it shouldn't call on the international law to protect it's own people.

The GC does not protect the prisoners in Cuba. As for the shackles - how would you transport prisoners? They're not whipped - they're not starved, they don't have guns down their throats.

Has amnesty international ever petitioned for our soldiers??? Even though we treat captives humanely - even without the GC - yet the same is never given to our soldiers. Look at Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf Wat - in none of those cases were our soldiers threated humanely.