Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - Page 18

Elanor · 09-20-2005, 05:13 PM

What's with the smug look?

Lord Choc Obo · 09-20-2005, 06:53 PM

it says that the picture is "asleep" if I remember correctly, turning yourself into a magical picture must be hard and tire-ing (how ever you write it

)

I always wondered, do the headmaster/mistress pictures know everything the person they depict knew at their time of death??? they seem to be able to learn, Phideas was able to comprehend and learn that the last of the Blacks was dead, so would the DD picture maybe be able to help Harry in finding the next Horcruxes??? or maybe we will find out about the blackened hand in the last book

Rconsole · 09-20-2005, 07:02 PM

The portraits must know what happened right? if not they could just tell him but I don't see why they couldn't

Spock · 09-20-2005, 07:03 PM

Just completed my second read of the book. Thoughts: DD hid a horcrux of himself...the pix is asleep as he really isn't dead...to conjure a pix is easy....now if he is dead then the pix is merely resting and Yes I agree the pix should know as much as the person depicted. Clear as mud.

durinsbane2244 · 09-20-2005, 07:44 PM

[HUGE GASP] that would involve DD killin someone! WARNING-WARNING:EXTREME DARK MAGIC ALERT!

Rconsole · 09-21-2005, 07:31 AM

I don't think Dumbledore made a Horcrux...is just not him :/

Lord Choc Obo · 09-21-2005, 07:08 PM

let's not forget he got the Slytherin ring on a very strange way, I can't remember if it is said how he did it, but it could involve killing if it's not said clearly, no?

but anyway, I don't want DD to come back the way Voldy did, any way he did it (riddle's head, the ghost in the book in CoS, the "baby" in GoF) that would be grooooowwwwsse, so what would it do that he had a horcrux?

Quote:

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

[HUGE GASP] that would involve DD killin someone! WARNING-WARNING:EXTREME DARK MAGIC ALERT!

durinsbane2244 · 09-21-2005, 07:35 PM

i was just rereading it again, and he says to the dursleys, "until we meet again", bum bum buuuuuum

Beren3000 · 09-22-2005, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

What's with the smug look?

It's because you people keep on discussing DD's portrait as if he's really dead

Elanor · 09-23-2005, 01:41 AM

Oh, you think he isn't? I admit there was that whole thing with the Phoenix coming out of his grave... but Avada Kedavra seems pretty final to me, and after all, Sirius didn't come back to life. I really think Dumbledore's gone from the story. He needs to be, so Harry can take on Voldemort alone at the end. It just has to be that way, I think.

Beren3000 · 09-23-2005, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

Oh, you think he isn't?

Yes, in fact I have a theory on the matter. If you're interested, refer to post #314 in this thread and tell me what you think of it.

tolkienfan · 09-23-2005, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

i was just rereading it again, and he says to the dursleys, "until we meet again", bum bum buuuuuum

That's true! But right after that it says the Dursleys looked as if they would be happy if it was forever as far as they were concerned.

durinsbane2244 · 09-24-2005, 08:09 AM

true, but DD usually doesn't say anything without meaning, exactly why i await the hand story!

Lord Choc Obo · 09-24-2005, 05:18 PM

I was always looking forward to the next lesson with DD to FINALLY FIND OUT ABOUT THE HAND, and they NEVER TOLD IT, I was a little bit much pissed about this when he died

Elanor · 09-24-2005, 08:54 PM

Beren3000, I think you did a good job by finding the parallel between Wormtail's silver hand and Dumbledore's blackened one (they are both the right hand), but I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

I think Dumbledore's blackened hand has already been satisfactorily explained. He got the injury while destroying the ring Horcrux. True, he does promise to tell the "thrilling" story of how it happened, but I think he just never gets around to that because he dies first. Sad, but true. J. K. Rowling isn't an author to kill one of her main, much-beloved characters and then bring him back to life. Sorry, but she just doesn't do that. In real life things aren't always tied off neatly, and some promises are never fulfilled, despite the best intentions.

You say it's not like Dumbledore to brag, but how do we know that? Harry has very limited contact with him in his first four years (albeit much more contact than the other students), and it's mostly as a sort of all-knowing, wise, untouchable person. In HBP, Harry truly gets to know Dumbledore as a father-figure, teacher and friend. I think that by Dumbledore's small, humble "bragging" (saying that being smarter just means he makes bigger mistakes!), he's letting Harry get to know him as a person. He's giving Harry a taste of the lonely life of those who have the weight of the world on their shoulders. It's not bragging to give an honest appraisal of your own abilities.

I do think it's unlike Dumbledore to plead for his own life, but I don't think that necessarily means he was Wormtail in disguise. Wormtail would be blubbering on the floor, whereas Dumbledore quietly, simply, said, "Severus, please..." There are so many possibilities for what this means! Here are a few:

1. He's pleading for Snape to not kill him so he'll be able to continue his work (saving the world from Voldemort) and help Harry. A noble cause, and worth pleading for. (This would imply that Snape is evil)
2. He's pleading for Snape TO kill him, so Snape won't have to break the Unbreakable Vow and die. Killing a fake Dumbledore wouldn't satisfy the Vow, you know! (This would imply that Snape is not evil)
3. He's pleading for Snape to kill him because he's been made suicidally depressed by the scary green potion. Remember Dumbledore telling Harry he wanted to die, in the cave? And then the whole way home he was asking for Severus, who had made a vow to kill him if Draco couldn't.... (This could fit Snape being either good or evil)

In short, there is a lot more evidence against Dumbledore being Wormtail in disguise than for it. Including the fact that Wormtail is working for Voldemort (and was loyal enough to go to the trouble of bringing him back to life), fears Dumbledore, and probably hates Snape. But it's good to think of wacky theories just the same. Keep it up.

durinsbane2244 · 09-24-2005, 09:21 PM

wow, that's clever, but i just thought, DD is probably an animagus, so what if he turns into a pheonix, and than a fake DD, could be anyone with polyjuice, dies, explaining the free usage of the hand, and than the unbreakable vow remains intact because draco failed to kill an imposter, not DD!

Beren3000 · 09-25-2005, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

True, he does promise to tell the "thrilling" story of how it happened, but I think he just never gets around to that because he dies first.

Strangely enough, he manages to dodge Harry's questions about it every time...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

J. K. Rowling isn't an author to kill one of her main, much-beloved characters and then bring him back to life.

You can't just make such a generalization. After all, JKR is an author whose style is still developing. From one book to the next, there are changes in her style, so how do you know she's "not that kind of author"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

You say it's not like Dumbledore to brag, but how do we know that?

Because from the "limited contact" Harry has with him, we can learn of his character. And of what I learned he is too modest to brag (at least too modest to brag the way he did in HBP)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

whereas Dumbledore quietly, simply, said, "Severus, please..."

Dumbledore certainly did NOT plead quietly and simply. It says in the book that Harry heard a sound that scared him more than anything else that has happened that night: Dumbledore's pleading. That doesn't sound very "quiet and simple" to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

He's pleading for Snape TO kill him, so Snape won't have to break the Unbreakable Vow and die.

That's interesting! One of my friends had the exact same theory to explain that Snape's innocent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

Killing a fake Dumbledore wouldn't satisfy the Vow, you know!

That's too large of an assumption to make when we don't know how the Vow was worded, don't you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elanor

And then the whole way home he was asking for Severus

Severus is an expert in DADA so DD could have been asking for him for a cure. Also, remember how Wormtail was in Snape's house at the beginning. This means that Snape has a sort of authority over him. So it would be Snape who would have coerced him into posing as DD. So he would want to "report" the night's incident to Snape.

Spock · 09-25-2005, 10:54 AM

but DD & HP apparated together so a fake DD isn't possible.

durinsbane2244 · 09-25-2005, 08:11 PM

why do you say that? it never says only DD can do a side-along apparation. . .

Spock · 09-26-2005, 01:48 AM

....sighs....because DD was with HPand in direct physical contact w/HP at the beginning and end of the apparation. There would be no chance of switching in a fake DD. reading comprehension is such a lost art.

09-20-2005, 05:13 PM	#341
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	What's with the smug look? __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

09-20-2005, 07:03 PM	#344
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Just completed my second read of the book. Thoughts: DD hid a horcrux of himself...the pix is asleep as he really isn't dead...to conjure a pix is easy....now if he is dead then the pix is merely resting and Yes I agree the pix should know as much as the person depicted. Clear as mud. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

09-20-2005, 07:44 PM	#345
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	[HUGE GASP] that would involve DD killin someone! WARNING-WARNING:EXTREME DARK MAGIC ALERT! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-21-2005, 07:35 PM	#348
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	i was just rereading it again, and he says to the dursleys, "until we meet again", bum bum buuuuuum __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-23-2005, 01:41 AM	#350
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Oh, you think he isn't? I admit there was that whole thing with the Phoenix coming out of his grave... but Avada Kedavra seems pretty final to me, and after all, Sirius didn't come back to life. I really think Dumbledore's gone from the story. He needs to be, so Harry can take on Voldemort alone at the end. It just has to be that way, I think. __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

09-20-2005, 06:53 PM	#342
Lord Choc Obo Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 101	it says that the picture is "asleep" if I remember correctly, turning yourself into a magical picture must be hard and tire-ing (how ever you write it ) I always wondered, do the headmaster/mistress pictures know everything the person they depict knew at their time of death??? they seem to be able to learn, Phideas was able to comprehend and learn that the last of the Blacks was dead, so would the DD picture maybe be able to help Harry in finding the next Horcruxes??? or maybe we will find out about the blackened hand in the last book

09-20-2005, 07:02 PM	#343
Rconsole Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 359	The portraits must know what happened right? if not they could just tell him but I don't see why they couldn't

09-21-2005, 07:31 AM	#346
Rconsole Elven Warrior Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 359	I don't think Dumbledore made a Horcrux...is just not him :/

09-24-2005, 08:09 AM	#353
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	true, but DD usually doesn't say anything without meaning, exactly why i await the hand story! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-24-2005, 05:18 PM	#354
Lord Choc Obo Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 101	I was always looking forward to the next lesson with DD to FINALLY FIND OUT ABOUT THE HAND, and they NEVER TOLD IT, I was a little bit much pissed about this when he died

09-24-2005, 08:54 PM	#355
Elanor Hobbit in the Music Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Westmarch Posts: 1,111	Beren3000, I think you did a good job by finding the parallel between Wormtail's silver hand and Dumbledore's blackened one (they are both the right hand), but I'm sure it's just a coincidence. I think Dumbledore's blackened hand has already been satisfactorily explained. He got the injury while destroying the ring Horcrux. True, he does promise to tell the "thrilling" story of how it happened, but I think he just never gets around to that because he dies first. Sad, but true. J. K. Rowling isn't an author to kill one of her main, much-beloved characters and then bring him back to life. Sorry, but she just doesn't do that. In real life things aren't always tied off neatly, and some promises are never fulfilled, despite the best intentions. You say it's not like Dumbledore to brag, but how do we know that? Harry has very limited contact with him in his first four years (albeit much more contact than the other students), and it's mostly as a sort of all-knowing, wise, untouchable person. In HBP, Harry truly gets to know Dumbledore as a father-figure, teacher and friend. I think that by Dumbledore's small, humble "bragging" (saying that being smarter just means he makes bigger mistakes!), he's letting Harry get to know him as a person. He's giving Harry a taste of the lonely life of those who have the weight of the world on their shoulders. It's not bragging to give an honest appraisal of your own abilities. I do think it's unlike Dumbledore to plead for his own life, but I don't think that necessarily means he was Wormtail in disguise. Wormtail would be blubbering on the floor, whereas Dumbledore quietly, simply, said, "Severus, please..." There are so many possibilities for what this means! Here are a few: 1. He's pleading for Snape to not kill him so he'll be able to continue his work (saving the world from Voldemort) and help Harry. A noble cause, and worth pleading for. (This would imply that Snape is evil) 2. He's pleading for Snape TO kill him, so Snape won't have to break the Unbreakable Vow and die. Killing a fake Dumbledore wouldn't satisfy the Vow, you know! (This would imply that Snape is not evil) 3. He's pleading for Snape to kill him because he's been made suicidally depressed by the scary green potion. Remember Dumbledore telling Harry he wanted to die, in the cave? And then the whole way home he was asking for Severus, who had made a vow to kill him if Draco couldn't.... (This could fit Snape being either good or evil) In short, there is a lot more evidence against Dumbledore being Wormtail in disguise than for it. Including the fact that Wormtail is working for Voldemort (and was loyal enough to go to the trouble of bringing him back to life), fears Dumbledore, and probably hates Snape. But it's good to think of wacky theories just the same. Keep it up. __________________ Middle Earth Crossword Puzzle on the Tolkien Site of DOOM Segovia Mazes

09-24-2005, 09:21 PM	#356
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	wow, that's clever, but i just thought, DD is probably an animagus, so what if he turns into a pheonix, and than a fake DD, could be anyone with polyjuice, dies, explaining the free usage of the hand, and than the unbreakable vow remains intact because draco failed to kill an imposter, not DD! __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-25-2005, 10:54 AM	#358
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	but DD & HP apparated together so a fake DD isn't possible. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

09-25-2005, 08:11 PM	#359
durinsbane2244 Dreamweaver Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Misty Mountains, where the spirits go... Posts: 3,560	why do you say that? it never says only DD can do a side-along apparation. . . __________________ Lord, what fools these mortals be! ---------------- We are the music-makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams, Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams; World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams: Yet we are the movers and shakers Of the world for ever, it seems. ---------------- Shanti, shanti, shantih...

09-26-2005, 01:48 AM	#360
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	....sighs....because DD was with HPand in direct physical contact w/HP at the beginning and end of the apparation. There would be no chance of switching in a fake DD. reading comprehension is such a lost art. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."