01-21-2006, 07:59 AM | #341 | |||||||
Lady of the Ulairi
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The relevant things will be the following: 1.Umbar was one of the two greatest havens of Numenoreans since 2280 Second Age. It was the haven of King's men, while Pelargir was the haven of the Faithful. a. UT: "before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron's dominions" b. LOTR Appendices :"TA 933 King Eärnil I takes Umbar, which becomes a fortress of Gondor". That means BEFORE that it was NOT a fortress of Gondor. c. Silm: " And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin." In this stoty it was Fuinur who sent the small fleet to Tharbad following the ML bidding 2. At the moment of the Downfall both Pelargir and Umbar were bound to have BIG fleets stationed there- certainly lots of small coastal vessels, that never travelled to Numenor and were kept in ME havens. There were bound to be shipyards aplenty as well. 3. Umbar was a great NATURAL haven - see in Silm: "the mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought." Look at it on the map as well: it is quite well sheltered from the Sea, much better than Pelargir. So the destruction caused by the Downfall must have affected Umbar much less than Pelargir. 4.Both Umbarians and Gondoreans most probably continued building ships - at least coastal ships: Isildur escaped from Osgiliath by ship; Umbarians had to build ships to assure communication with numerous smaller havens south along the coast. 5.The building of GREAT navies and big seagoing ships in Gondor happened much later: LOTR: "With Tarannon, the twelfth king, began the line of the Ship-kings, who built navies and extended the sway of Gondor along the coasts west and south of the Mouths of Anduin. To commemorate his victories as Captain of the Hosts, Tarannon took the crown in the name of Falastur 'Lord of the Coasts'. Eärnil I, his nephew, who succeeded him, repaired the ancient haven of Pelargir, and built a great navy. He laid siege by sea and land to Umbar, and took it, and it became a great harbour and fortress of the power of Gondor." Quote:
They wouldn't attack either Gondor or Arnor in force, and they didn't. Twelve small ships are no big deal. Sure, the captains take great risks, but they hope to be rewarded by big plunder. The expedition was proposed to them not by a nazgul, but by the Lord of Umbar, who remembers old alliances. After all, what is for him the loss of 12 small ships in case of defeat? Quote:
Sailing right past Gondor was not a small feat, of course, as even much later corsairs rarely went past Anfalas. But for small ships travelling by night, or further away from the coast and attacking nobody, it was feasible, I believe. But it was certainly unheard of before: that's why Arnor felt so secure. Quote:
As well, can you give me ONE reason why the Eagles of Crissaeglir haven't warned the population of Gondolin of the approaching foes? If we reason as you do, there would NEVER be a single SURPRIZE attack! Quote:
We are not playing a war game. We are basically writing a common story. I don't see why two sides can't come to an agreement, instead of making warlike statements. And more: we are proposing new events to enliven the game. That is met by hostility - so what? Should we stagnate in our classes? What new ideas do you, FOGALS, propose? I feel all I say is falling on DEAF EARS. Last edited by Gordis : 01-21-2006 at 10:50 AM. |
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01-21-2006, 10:02 AM | #342 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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And you forgot the theatrical fainting. Quote:
*mutters* note to self: please STOP reading French texts before posting on the Entmoot, it screws up the spelling. But I'm sure Lilly has some antiques somewhere, must have, she lived long enough to collect some. Quote:
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01-21-2006, 10:53 AM | #343 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Very interesting posts, Serenoli, Lotesse and CS Last edited by Gordis : 01-21-2006 at 10:56 AM. |
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01-21-2006, 10:59 AM | #344 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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I agree with what Gordis said, it seems a harmless enough war, we can just fight it for the fun of it... but, of course if the attack never reached Tharbad, it would be rather dull!! I think the idea to enliven things up was very good. After all, what was the point of all those pages of war-skills we include in evry charcter bio, if we never see them use the skills?
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01-21-2006, 11:11 AM | #345 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Will there be the LOTR story ,if Gandalf has not been careless? If he had "figured out" the Ring in time, secured Gollum at once, didn't go to Orthank, but directly to the Shire? Or if he used Eagles to carry Frodo to Orodruin? Or on the other hand, would there be a good story if the Nine, who sensed the Ring keenly, after all, had seized it in the Shire? Otherwise, without these mistakes and failings, a story is not a story, but a train timetable. Last edited by Gordis : 01-21-2006 at 11:14 AM. |
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01-21-2006, 11:23 AM | #346 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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I agree with Gordis and Serenoli. The FOGALS have put to us, FOEADS, lots of conditions: don't kill any of the characters, don't burn Tharbad, let us have some warning... ALL of them were accepted.
But now all the agreements are shaken: we can't have a fight in Tharbad! Because the King is against! Well, Val, you may be King in the game, but sorry you are not one in RL. Let us VOTE. I am for the fight in Tharbad! |
01-21-2006, 11:36 AM | #347 |
Head of the Department for the Invention and Propagation of Sugar, Spice and Everything Nice!
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Me, too. War, WAR, WAR!! I'm tired of peace...
CS, good last post. I have posted a reply post where Tol explains all to Buz. BTW, where is Viv? Haven't seen her for a while, and she needs to know also. I know Tol will soon go back to the Uni to get his stuff, maybe he can see Viv on way back. Or maybe Lily or Buz can fill her in while he's gone. I hope not Lily, though, cos she'll definitely poison Viv's mind against my poor Tol!
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01-21-2006, 12:07 PM | #348 | |||||
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and re-read what I said. All I was saying was that I didn't see how that many ships plus the burning/looting of a town could stay under the radar, given that Val is a reasonable king with reasonable lines of information I'm not saying to can the fight - I'm saying that IMO, it might be REASONABLE to scale it down if you want to claim that they are going to arrive undetected. Quote:
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Let's have the fight, but let's work together - NO ONE should be able to impose on what the authors feel that other people's characters would reasonably do, and to say that a fleet of pirates can just sail into Tharbad undetected, after razing a town, is saying that Val's character is a helpless idiot, IMO. Let's grant that his character is a reasonable king. We're already granting you FOEADS a LOT of latitude by being undetected.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-21-2006, 12:12 PM | #349 | |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Serenoli, Awesome post. You portray Tol very well, really. And that's exactly the way I see Buz, a nice guy, all told and, well, perpetually drunk because of Lil .
Loved it, especially : Quote:
And GREAT Post Sun-Star. Our secret service man, always on guard! That's nice to see old Estelmo back. By the way, wasn't he going to see his old buddy Ilmenzor some time this week, to talk of good old times? The end of your post is wonderful - foreshadowing things to happen... Post more often, PLEASE! |
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01-21-2006, 12:19 PM | #350 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Just came back to clarify a point - you guys can say that a pirate fleet is sailing up the river, and that is TOTALLY in your jurisdiction - BUT - it is NOT in your jurisdiction to say that they got past all the king's defenses/lines of intelligence, or that there are no defenses/lines of intelligence, because the defenses are NOT in the jurisdiction of your characters. Do you see what I mean? You'll need to strike up an agreement with the HOLDER of the defenses/lines of intelligence.
You don't need my OK with this, because my characters have nothing to do with the defenses of the kingdom or its methods of gathering intelligence. (You WOULD need my OK if you wanted to have some pirate carry Rian off and have her fall madly in love with him, though!) But to proceed with integrity, you DO need to come to an agreement with the king and other military people as to what their intelligence would and would not detect, IMO. We ARE working with you
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-21-2006, 12:22 PM | #351 |
Shape-shifting, men-grabbing NAZGUL
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Rian, please, let Val fight his own battles. He has escaped the tutelage of the Queen-mother after all .
Better you tell for everybofdy to understand: Do you vote for a battle in Tharbad itself, or against? |
01-21-2006, 12:37 PM | #352 |
Elf Lord
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#760 slightly changed, hope it'll do there not having been any battle yet, and no decision as to when.
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01-21-2006, 01:58 PM | #353 | ||
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It's clear from your posts that several of you FOEADs misunderstand the objections we FOGALs are making, and I'm trying to clear them up because I happen to be online. Your desire to have pirates sail up to Tharbad for a little fight says something about a character that you do NOT own!; namely, Valandil the king who is in charge of defense/intelligence for the kingdom. And I don't think ANYONE has a right to define what anyone else's character would do. That's why I wouldn't write that Rian walked up to Lilly and they became best friends. I'd check with you first before writing something about how YOUR character would act, and I think you guys should give the same courtesy to Val, because the way it stands, YOU GUYS are saying that VAL'S CHARACTER is an incompetent king, and I don't think you guys have the right to do that. Quote:
To Gordis - hang in there, I think we can get you this fight, but it will take a bit of work to work out in a way that is fair to all
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-21-2006 at 02:06 PM. |
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01-21-2006, 02:04 PM | #354 | |
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I have expressed mine. You avoided the question. Do YOU want the battle to happen in Tharbad, or do you want the fleet never reach the city? Please, give a plain answer. |
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01-21-2006, 02:11 PM | #355 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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So do you (and others) understand what I'm saying about how this matter says something about a character that you don't own?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-21-2006, 02:14 PM | #356 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I like it better, GW I think too much munching of people inside the city will cause general alarm that we don't want yet.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-21-2006, 02:17 PM | #357 | |
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Interesting, did Morgoth ask Turgon's permission before attacking Gondolin? |
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01-21-2006, 02:27 PM | #358 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here's what I said in that post that I keep referring to: "Let's have the fight, but let's work together..." Here's what I just said to Gordis: "hang in there, I think we can get you this fight, but it will take a bit of work to work out in a way that is fair to all." Or if you want, go ahead and start the fleet to Tharbad without discussion. Then Val can write "but they didn't know that 10,000 soldiers just happened to be camping right before Tharbad and they killed all the pirates." Then you guys can write "but they didn't know that the pirates had some mysterious instant plague that killed all the soldiers but the pirates were immune to." Then Val can write "but the soldiers were able to fight as ghosts (LOTR canon!) and killed all the pirates." Then you guys can write "but the Chancellor said spells that immobilized the ghosts" Then I can write "but Rian ran up to the Chancellor right before he said the spell and started kissing him, and he was lost in his love for her, and never said the spell." on and on ad nauseum.... or we can respect and work with each other and how we view our characters And about Gondolin - Morgoth couldn't attack Gondolin for hundreds of years. Shall we say that you guys can attack in a few hundred years? Come on, all we're trying to do is keep it realistic and get EVERYONE'S opinion on what is realistic in relation to their characters.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-21-2006 at 02:30 PM. |
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01-21-2006, 02:31 PM | #359 |
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I think that the battle is a good idea, but let's not make the decision into an argument that results in the temporary or permanent closing of our RPG. I think there should be some warning of the invading forces, otherwise to much damage will be cause.
Val, you could say, when asked, that as king you should be where the fighting is/will be, not running away from.
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01-21-2006, 02:39 PM | #360 |
The Black Númenórean
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I am for the fight.
I just am having trouble adjusting to it. It wont take a great army to do some sneak attack damage. A small force of able bodied pirates can certanily cause mayham. BY THE WAY. Shah and his men are going to have to do some boat hopping in order to get back to the right side of the river. I am going to give you FOEAD people chances to WOUND THEM (not kill them). Lotesse Could you have Viv find her boy-toy wounded in the wreckage? I think that would clench the trouble and help us later on down the road.
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