05-21-2007, 05:57 PM | #341 | |
Elf Lord
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The collapse started with the religious wars and Enlightenment, and the World Wars finalized it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-21-2007, 06:08 PM | #342 | |
Elf Lord
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May Last edited by sisterandcousinandaunt : 05-21-2007 at 06:43 PM. |
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05-21-2007, 06:16 PM | #343 | |
Elf Lord
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you mean 'finalised'???
That would be the correct spelling. Quote:
and how, prey, do you care to interpret God's will if not by man, as per previous discussions here and your previous arguments? ergo - either, by your previous arguments, it is anarchy or Man? Or are you perhaps being pedantic in the extreme, in the hope that such weak but circular convolution might pass for true debate? Then any force however so given and for any damnable evil intentions is justifiable, merely and simply because of, and more glaringly, perhaps essentially in part in the name of, if not the spirit of, GOD? Is this your claim? |
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05-21-2007, 06:38 PM | #344 | |||||
Elf Lord
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But if man chooses to disobey God and if the appointed rulers disobey God's laws, there is a penalty, for God is just. Quote:
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Turning away from the "One True Church" began in the form of Protestantism, but I don't see that as a falling away from Christianity. I don't think that the Catholic Church sees it that way anymore either, though, as you know, there are still Christians in both denominations that view each other as in a state of heresy. The Enlightenment existed throughout Europe, and also impacted the United States. That's a huge geographical spread. And the philosophical impact was incredibly dramatic. One could argue that the division between Protestants and Catholics was more dramatic, but I don't know. The Enlightenment was the intellectual birthplace of modern secularism, for it put reason above religion as the guiding principle for mankind.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-21-2007 at 06:49 PM. |
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05-21-2007, 07:09 PM | #345 | |
Elf Lord
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The Discourse merits attention today precisely on account of its affirmation that human nature, which is in itself indeterminate and weak, comes alive and obtains its identity through the plurality of human cultures, each representing customs that, though distinct, are (in their essence, structure and function) essentially identical. Hence the possibility of harmony and grounds for "peace" among cultures. http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Ita...entaz/eng.html The people who claimed to "educate" you completely punted the ball. It's the Renaissance you've rejected.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-21-2007, 07:29 PM | #346 | |
Elf Lord
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This quote doesn't contradict anything I said.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-21-2007 at 07:33 PM. |
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05-21-2007, 08:46 PM | #347 |
Sapling
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If you are looking to create the ideal nation, it isn't possible. Precisely because of our fallen nature, we don't have the capacity for perfection. The only perfect place is heaven, and Catholics believe not even the saved can enter the presence of God without the purifying fire of purgatory, aside from saints perhaps. Even with the grace of God at Communion, we are not perfect. Confession and the Eucharist remove guilt and damnation to hell (and bring about the gifts of the Holy Spirit), but we are by no means perfect. Look no further than those priests in our own country who were constantly before the Blessed Sacrament, yet still failed miserably and horrifically. We cannot be perfect, even while we are all called to be holy.
The Church believes, in addition, that people in other religions can go to heaven, so long as they don't outright reject Jesus. The Church cannot read another man's heart and soul. Only God can, and to judge another's salvation or damnation is to bring judgment upon oneslef. "Judge not lest you be judged." |
05-21-2007, 09:01 PM | #348 |
Elf Lord
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Hey, Firenze. And now infants aren't necessarily in limbo. You may not appreciate how big a deal that is, but it's really huge for some people I know. All part of that modernist breakdown Lief deplores, no doubt.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
05-21-2007, 09:23 PM | #349 | |
Elf Lord
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I agree that Humanism, and the Renaissance in general was not opposed to Christianity. Neither is modernity. It's your whacked out version that anything pertaining to reason rejects. Actual Christianity remains safe.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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05-21-2007, 09:30 PM | #350 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Nine accurate historical depictions does not make the tenth by a given author correct. The question of biblical historical accuracy has nothing to do with the things that can be proven, but rather the things that can not. Quote:
What survives is what works, and history has proven that not to be any one theological system, but a melding of the good points of all those systems that have come into play. Christianity added a lot of positive aspects, but it is not the end of the evolution.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-21-2007, 09:37 PM | #351 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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05-21-2007, 09:45 PM | #352 |
Elf Lord
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*psst* BJ used the "E" word. *snigger*
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
05-21-2007, 10:33 PM | #353 | |||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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But I don't like the word "prove." Prove beyond reasonable doubt, yes. Quote:
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Sometimes home and parents do fail their children. Other times, children fail their parents. Sometimes the system fails the people. Other times, the people fails the system and degrade it through their own errors. One can't generalize and always blame the system. Quote:
Your words also seem to indicate that Hitler's dictatorship worked better than democracy. Your statement, indeed, seems to indicate that whoever wins a war had a better, more functional society. Whoever comes out on the top was more functional. That makes sense, I guess, considering your utilitarian perspective. But it is certainly completely amoral. Often, winners were fiends who destroyed culture and civilization in favor of a more barbarous way of life. The Aztecs (prior to the Conquistadors), the Babylonians, or the Assyrians, above all the Assyrians, are good examples. If you lived back then, at the time the Assyrians had a huge empire, I suppose you would be saying that they were the best form of government known? Quote:
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This article does not support your claims.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-22-2007, 12:46 AM | #354 |
Elf Lord
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The piece supports my claims. Reality supports my claims. A study of history supports my claims. Is the sequence of words you're holding out for in the excerpt I posted? No, and if it had been, you'd have chosen another sequence. If you actually knew anything about this piece of literature, or the Renaissance in general, you'd know that the begin of the 'decline' you lament is datable to the Renaissance, because it was in the Renaissance that people began to elevate their own understanding over the authoritarian "Word of God." That's the origin of the scientific method, of Protestantism, and of all the contentious mess of democracy. Dissemination of dangerous ideas was far easier after the invention of the printing press. The interpretive changes to the views of the Magna Carta in the 1600's are clearly the first serious attempt at a system of governanace that's civil and therefore separate either from ecclesiastical governance or the divinely throned king. That's "secular politics" for you. Galileo is your enemy.
“It vexes me when they would constrain science by the authority of the Scriptures, and yet do not consider themselves bound to answer reason and experiment.” “I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the Scriptures, but with experiments, and demonstrations.” “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” “The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go” "By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox."
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
05-22-2007, 01:11 AM | #355 |
of the House of Fëanor
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The comparison, however loosely made, between Lief's argument for a christian theocracy as a mode of government and the ideologies of Osama bin Laden & his Taliban, I must say, are chillingly and creepily the SAME. All due respect, but hey, you are one scary em effer, Lief. Good thing our government is still working fine and well enough to keep folks such as yourself from turning the United States into some terrifying Orwellian religious theocratic fascist nightmare...
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 05-22-2007 at 01:12 AM. |
05-22-2007, 01:33 AM | #356 | |||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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20th century movements tend to trace the scientific method to the Enlightenment, however. Quote:
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I don't know. I'm still weighing this one. But again, this is off-topic from our discussion of humanism, and plus you're again making a factually error. According to the Wikipedia article I cited above, the Enlightenment was the source of democracy in modern times: Quote:
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I'll tell you what, sisterandcousinandaunt. I think that the Enlightenment did have its roots in the Renaissance, but many of those roots were not anti-Christian at that time. They would probably become more so toward the end of the Renaissance, in the 16th and 17th centuries. They definitely were anti-Christian during the Enlightenment. The preceeding Age of Reason
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-22-2007 at 01:52 AM. |
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05-22-2007, 01:42 AM | #357 | |
of the House of Fëanor
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
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05-22-2007, 01:55 AM | #358 | |
Elf Lord
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__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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05-22-2007, 03:05 AM | #359 | |
the Shrike
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Hey leif? Pride's one of the 7 deadly sins, doncha know? Last edited by BeardofPants : 05-22-2007 at 03:09 AM. |
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05-22-2007, 03:27 AM | #360 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Grazie, bella, & so awesome to see you here... so, on topic here - Lief - Is arrogance a deadly sin, too, or just one of the lesser ones? And standing in judgement, is that a sin? As I recall, someone for whom christianity was named once said something along the lines of "Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself" or something but I could be wrong - or not.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 05-22-2007 at 03:29 AM. |
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