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#341 | ||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
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1) From what I've heard, wouldn't that be especially the author? I thought that you'd said a few times that the author is the single person who is least capable of telling about his story and the meanings themes etc. therein. 2) Um...isn't this just the same thing: opinion? 3) But what does Tolkien's lack of knowledge in regards to drama have to do with the themes of his book? 4) Not necessarily true. If he told a different story, it could have interested the audience. 5) Um...isn't that exactly what BB always does? ![]() 6) Yourself included?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#342 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#343 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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1) In my opinion the author's guess at his own themes is important, but I don't think he's the final authority.
2) Sure, it's my opinion that Shakespeare is greater than Tolkien. I hope that doesn't get me banned! ![]() 3) What I'm saying is that Tolkien's prejudice against drama has made him a non-authority on the subject of converting fiction to drama. His opinion is useful, but on some matters he lacks the experience to address dramatic issues. 4) She said he failed to tell the story. I think he is succeeding. 5) Yes, they're both guilty of stating their taste and opinions as holy writ. 6) My lame attempt to make an operatic libretto of Beren and Luthien taught me one thing: it is impossible to do it following the fiction writer all the way. Glorfindel: What would you rather have, a cameo for an obscure hero from another book or expansion of a central character? I know your answer is different from PJ's, but it is a mattter of taste. Faramir: Yeah, I disagree with him here, too. But it's my guess he wanted to make it clear by showing, not telling, that Gondor was also under attack. Because Theoden just said that Gondor would not aid him. (Never mind that Osgiliath was actually attacked months earlier... grrr...) I mean, I can see his rationale. Can't say I like it...
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#344 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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1) I'm curious: who do you think gets the final authority? The reader?
2) ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 3) You didn't answer my question. I was talking about such things as what he wrote without any regard to dramatization of his book, as in the Themes, or the appearance of Orcs. 4) But it stands he could tell a different story, and quite possibly captivate the audience, yes? 5) I'm sorry, I don't think I've ever seen you jump on BB for this. Is it because he's been around longer? But those are still not interpretations of Tolkien, but rather changes (with the intent of improving upon) of Tolkien. Of course he had reasons; I didn't think he just went through blindfolded, tore out pages, and then rewrote them. ![]()
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#345 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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It's obvious that some people think those changes were attempts to improve on Tolkien. I think BB is the only one who ever used that word here actually making that claim. I think in every conversion between a narrated art and an acted art you'll have to change things. I don't agree with those changes either, I hope that's clear.
3) That's a different topic. 4) Given that there must be changes, it stands to reason that the story will be a little different. It's certainly not as different as people have been exagerating! 1) Now we're getting into philosophy and that's way off the point. You know what I will say in my existential angst... Basically, a writer can't spend his life trashing an entire genre and then people get to use his books to bonk the heads of those who work in that genre. That's just absurd.
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#346 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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I mean, just because I would do it differently doesn't give me the right to go around declaring war on everyone who likes the way it was done.
Let's start a thread about what we would have done differently! p.s. remind me to jump on BB...
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#347 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 828
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Everything that gets posted here only reinforces my opinion that you Purists here really are caught up in the details. You just can't let go of the little nitpicky things that for some reason upset your personal view of LOTR. As Elfhelm has so eloquently pointed out, screenplays are different creatures than novels. Peter, Fran, and Phillipa tried to capture the spirit of the books while making changes necessary to the drama, pacing, and flow of the films.
Everytime I ask for examples of how PJ's themes differ from the books, I get nitpicky specifics about characterizations or plot deviations deemed necessary for bringing the story to the big screen. If you want to continue to trash these films, that's your right. If you want to say they fail to capture the spirit of the books, you can do that too. But understand that your so-called "truths" only cause most LOTR fans to smile to themselves and say, "uh oh, one of those people." The real truth is that the world is hailing Peter Jackson's film version of this tale. Each of the first two films has made over 800 million at the box office in their theatrical releases alone. With the DVD sales, the take is in billions of dollars. The critics, many of them huge Tolkien fans, have applauded the way PJ has captured the magic of the books on film. Others in the industry agree: The films have received 18 Academy Award nominations and won 7. And we haven't even gotten to THE BEST of the three films yet!!!!!!!!! *** Special note - This is the point where some Purist responds with "yeah, so what? Lots of money and Academy Award recognition don't mean diddily squat!" *** I understand. Really I do. Why spoil your precious "truth" with the cold, bitter taste of reality? Mark my words, Return of the King will earn over a billion dollars at the boxoffice and will win the Academy Award as Best Picture of the Year. The entire film series will be gobbled up by eager LOTR fans for years and years to come. If the view of you Purists was truly "the Majority" view and not the grumblings of a few whiney LOTR message board geeks (I mean this in the NICEST way ![]() ![]() By the way, how many of you are planning to boycott ROTK since you are so disgusted with its translation from the book? ![]() Last edited by Black Breathalizer : 04-29-2003 at 08:26 PM. |
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#348 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Of course not. I have no problem with people who thought they were fine adaptations, as I've said before, i.e. Lizra, Dunedain, and a few others. It's BB that gets annoying, with his militaristic attitude about it, and the way he acts like those who don't agree a) don't understand Tolkien b) are too dumb to tell that it is in actuality perfection on screen, or c) which I won't even mention.
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P. S. He did not "spend his life trashing an entire genre". The fact that he strongly disliked does not mean he bad-mouthed seven days a week.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#349 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 43
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#350 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Whacko, it is the same in the book; once Gandalf has fallen from the bridge, there are no attempts to aid him.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#351 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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I'm not a purist, I'm a snob.
![]() If the details aren't important, maybe the author should have written a short story! There you go justifying your means with your "same ends" again. The story IS the details, didn't you know? GW, I wasn't refering to those other areas. However, I do prefer to think for myself.
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cya |
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#352 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 43
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I for one, came away from the movie feeling rather hollow for a 3 hour movie sitting !! ![]() ![]() Prime example, Tolkien wrote three contrasting characters for erhmm "dramatisation": frodo, gollum faramir.......the past, the present and the future...what did Jackson give us?? 3 gollums (actually 2, faramir was a confused wreck) And this is in the middle of the second book, doea anyone doubt the outcome of the sotyr? great suspense NOT for a visual medium and a director aspiring to greatness, Jackson seems to have a lot of voice overs ![]() ![]() ![]() Last edited by WhackoJacko : 04-29-2003 at 11:48 PM. |
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#353 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 43
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how untrue can u get??? that my friend is the criteria to judge a fiction author |
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#354 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 43
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#355 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 43
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well it made sense in the book so why not on screen?? Given the fact that Boromir had the ring in his hands already (the one person who wanted it and would use it) and gave it back duh !!! ![]() |
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#356 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Oh, didn't you know? Apparently, TTT was Tolkien's brain fart.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#357 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,412
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That's silly, Aragorn isn't corrupted by it either.
But I guess he's trying to give more persona to the One Ring. I heard him say he was trying to make it a character but it can only act through others. Sounds to me like he's approaching it like a dramatic challenge. I can't explain the depths I get from these two movies, and I don't think you really want to read it anyway. For months after the first movie I was unable to watch any other movie. Again after the second movie I had the same situation. My expectations for film became very high. I have been moved by the performances of the actors. I have played the two sound tracks over and over. I sing Britten and Bach and barbershop. The singing on the soundtrack, the awesome choral writing, the haunting songs, that's just a small piece of what these renditions do for me. I've always liked Alan Lee. Some of the set are right out of his drawings! I could go on, actually mention some emotional reactions, but if you've never had them, you wouldn't understand. There are things I don't agree with, and I've mentioned them here in the past, but I am eagerly awaiting the EE DVD and I am ready for RotK. Maybe I should rent Arachnaphobia to get me in the mood for her.
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#358 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Wasn't Arachnaphobia about little spiders? Eight-legged Freaks is big spiders...but that movies was pure crap...
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#359 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 43
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![]() it will be such a let down is u get so hyped up lol....go watch 'the rise and fall of the Roman Empire" the "real" Gladiator and see why modern directors sux swo much dpesite better technology |
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#360 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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