Abortion.

[inked]

Rian et alia,

I have always been in states where abortion providers were regulated by the state (SC, VA, TX, MO). When a patient desires a termination, I refer them to the Yellow Pages under abortion. Such facilities should be regulated and meet the standards of OP ambulatory clinics where surgery is performed. So, as far as providers go, I do not maintain a list. But, as your article makes clear, not all physicians like myself have the availability of qualified providers. In that case, I think I would have to maintain a list of the same to give to patients so they could pursue safe care.

Interestingly, I have been told once in my career by a patient that I should have to provide her abortion because it was inconvenient for her to go elsewhere. That was in a location where she might have had to drive 45 miles to a provider. I gently informed her of the fact that I did not do abortions except to save the life of the mother, that her life was not in danger, and that since we were in a state that regulated abortion clinics she could have confidence in the level of services provided. She persisted in her insistence that I provide her service because it was my ethical duty to do what the patient wanted. I again gently advised her that my position was firm and that I was entitled to as much protection of my conscience as she was of hers.

Now, the fascinating part of this was that this college educated WASP had become pregnant after reading descriptions of menopause in women's magazines and had stopped using contraception since she had diagnosed herself with menopause. That just floored me. I wanted to say she should seek her abortion from her diagnostician, but I refrained from that in charity.
Yet, the attitude that I should have to violate my conscience to satisfy her was really quite predominant in this lady. I did not try to change her mind about her seeking an abortion and showed every professional respect, but somehow she never quite grasped that I had the right to refuse. When I finally convinced her that I would not she left very angry. She did finally obtain her procedure and came to me for post-op care (I assume for her convenience or perhaps, because she wanted to give me the brochures from her abortion provider).

Providers should meet minimal standards for facilities such as the ones outlined in the organizations your article cited. Providers should be qualified medical personnel. Board certification is a commonly accepted marker of adequate training in virtually all medical fields.

I think, however, that all providers have the right to maintain their ethical and moral integrity in provision of services. Do you really want someone not so "integral" operating on you? I wouldn't.

And, yes, I have had patients choose my services because of my pro-life stance, and I am sure I have been avoided by some for the same. But, I think I have respected my patients and they me, though we do not always agree on every aspect of care. The Hippocratic Oath hanging in my office is the one going back to Hippocrates. It also eschews abortion. So I stand in a long line of life affirmers, not all Christian even!

[Lotesse]

(In response to Rian's posted article)This is exactly why abortion should be not only legal, and readily available to any woman who chooses to terminate a pregnancy, but it should be VERY carefully and stridently watched by the government, to PROTECT these women, to PROTECT THEIR RIGHTS AND HEALTH, to INSURE that all women have made available to them SAFE, CLEAN, HUMANE, and LEGALLY SUPPORTED & POLICED abortion procedures done.

Inked - what you say here in this post right above, I absolutely agree. No doctor should be FORCED to perform ANY procedure upon a patient which he or she feels is ethically wrong to do; however, that patient should always be referred to another doctor or doctors who can give her second opinions and/or the medical treatment that she feels she needs.

[Rían]

I think it's a shame that some states still do not regulate abortion clinics, and that's why I posted the article. Did you guys realize that not all states regulate clinics?

The bit about Kansas was especially appalling - I'll repeat it:

“I heard stories about women being victimized sexually and humiliated by abortionists,� [Rep. Peggy Long-Mast] told Citizen. “It’s really deplorable to me that the very people who say they want to protect women will not support a healthy environment.�

One of the standards Long-Mast proposed was that another woman be present during examinations and procedures; abortionists said they were “appalled.�

“They said the minimum standards we proposed would shut down four out of seven abortion clinics in the state,� Long-Mast said. “That tells me they’re not qualified to operate in the first place.�

In the upper chamber, the bill received support from the Senate’s only physician, Sen. Jim Barnett, R-Wichita.

“I thought it was a balanced and fair bill that really tried to address concerns related to patient safety,� he said. “In internal medicine, we’re highly regulated. So it didn’t seem foreign to me to regulate [abortion clinics]. It’s a very common medical procedure that’s being performed.�

Barnett believed in the bill so strongly that he spent weeks shuttling between the pro-life and abortion advocacy camps, trying to reach a workable solution. But when he took the final version of the bill to the abortion lobbyists, his eyes were opened: They told him not to bother. They would never support clinic licensing and regulation, no matter what.

Good for Sen. Barnett for trying; shame on the lobbyists for their attitude.


And thank you, inked, for some more of your first-hand experiences.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

On the other hand, I did Thursday on the bus happen to encounter a certain older woman that was wearing shorts, and the sight of her rubbery, blotchy, puffy legs marred my bus experience. The cost of freedom .

[inked]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i'd have to assume that inked's post of one example is not the norm, but i am curious... my sister is in med school doing residency in germany... i will ask her how they treat opting out of things like abortion over there

Why BJ would you assume that? On the basis of my experience the out of the norm was the refusal to do abortions not the de facto requirement to do them.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Why BJ would you assume that? On the basis of my experience the out of the norm was the refusal to do abortions not the de facto requirement to do them.

because i've read articles on pro-abortion sites talking about how hard it is to obtain abortion training in many of the med schools and associated hosptials in the US... i can't imagine they would have an issue if most schools required this kind of training, as you seem to be implying

[inked]

I think I understand, BJ. The difference between med schools and residencies are precisely in the area of experience and technical performance under supervision of procedures. Medical students may be given the opportunity to observe D&C's or terminations depending on their institution and clinical rotations. They will NOT be performing the procedures. When I have medical students in as observers in surgeries they are primarily observers and not first-assistants in surgery, though they may scrub in and get some hands-on experience in retractors and suturing.

So, the pro-aborts whining about the lack of training in medical schools is really off target. It is not expected that medical students be able to perform other than simple procedures such as starting IV's, suturing minor lacerations or incisions, and other relatively benign operations. No medical student I know leaves school doing D&C's or open heart surgery. (Remember all the hullabaloo about the rise in deaths in hospitals in the month of July due to new interns? Those new interns are medical students graduated in May/June and starting residency in July!)

A residency program in OB/GYN will certainly provide the training to perform D&C's which is the same procedure (either by suction or manual curettage).

[Lotesse]

[Spock]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I rarely post entire articles,

Perhaps you'd consider posting the link instead, next time.

[inked]

Lotesse,

I think the caption on your cartoon should read

"Please may I kill my baby because I was too swept up in the moment to rely on a rubber, too liberated to believe I would ever put out on the spur of the moment, never thought I'd get pregnant just this once, forgot to pack my pills, and never realized that the right to control my body began with the ability to utilize the most efficient oral contraception known to woman-kind-"NO!" (or it's varying strenghts of "Hell, No!", "Not in this lifetime, Jerk" or stronger varieties as your vocabulary and education allow). Since I cannot be responsible for my own behaviours, do you really want me raising a child, anyway? I mean, even with my college education I can see that I'm not foresightful enough to do that yet! And, besides, it's only a tiny, defenseless, non-voting entity that I am not sure is really human even though I was just like it somewhere between 18 and 44 years ago myself.!"

And, there should be a little balloon rising from the uterus that says, "Help me. You are my only and last resort!" Just for fairness sake!

[Gil-galad]

Exactly. I don't think too many of us hate our mothers for not killing us when they had the chance. But somehow, anybody else can be as irresponsible as they choose. "That's not me in there, so I don't care."

[brownjenkins]

i curious, for those who are pro-life and express indignation at the total disregard for it abortion represents... how do you feel about the total disregard our society gives to those babies in terms of financial resources, education, etc. after they are in fact born?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by inked

Lotesse,

I think the caption on your cartoon should read

"Please may I kill my baby because I was too swept up in the moment to rely on a rubber, too liberated to believe I would ever put out on the spur of the moment, never thought I'd get pregnant just this once, forgot to pack my pills, and never realized that the right to control my body began with the ability to utilize the most efficient oral contraception known to woman-kind-"NO!" (or it's varying strenghts of "Hell, No!", "Not in this lifetime, Jerk" or stronger varieties as your vocabulary and education allow). Since I cannot be responsible for my own behaviours, do you really want me raising a child, anyway? I mean, even with my college education I can see that I'm not foresightful enough to do that yet! And, besides, it's only a tiny, defenseless, non-voting entity that I am not sure is really human even though I was just like it somewhere between 18 and 44 years ago myself.!"

And, there should be a little balloon rising from the uterus that says, "Help me. You are my only and last resort!" Just for fairness sake!

I agree.

I'm glad to see someone beside myself thought of the baby, warm and safe in its mother's womb, who will shortly be subjected to death by either chemical burning or dismemberment without any painkiller at all, even though scientific studies show that pain receptors are well-developed in a fetus at ages where abortion is still legal.

I hope the fetal pain awareness bill gets passed.

Yes, abortion is a difficult decision. But it's not as simple as that cartoon pretends it is.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i curious, for those who are pro-life and express indignation at the total disregard for it abortion represents... how do you feel about the total disregard our society gives to those babies in terms of financial resources, education, etc. after they are in fact born?

Education isn't free in our country?

What do you think about the fetal pain awareness bill, brownie?

[Spock]

actually I'm dizzy from following you two from topic to topic.....you must be "whirling dervishes" in disguise.

ah, anything to get the ol' post count higher I guess

[Rían]

I type like the wind ....

[Spock]

I thought Col. Flagg was the wind?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Education isn't free in our country?

What do you think about the fetal pain awareness bill, brownie?

healthcare and education are state to state in our country for the most part... and between the age of birth and school age, education is greatly lacking for those who do not have the means to pay for it

[Rían]

What do you think about the fetal pain awareness bill, brownie and others?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What do you think about the fetal pain awareness bill, brownie and others?

i think it's an enormous waste of time... time that could be better spent on issues that face young children that have already been born

way too much attention on fetuses, way too little on babies

sorry, nothing personal... it just bugs me