The Anti-theist Thread - Page 17

emplynx · 03-27-2002, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rogue Elf
What are you but making criminals and then punishing them for it, when you're the one who raised them that way?"

He didn't make criminals, he made perfect beings, with a free will. They used their will and failed God.

Quote:

Romans 6:23
For the Wages of Sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord.

Khadrane · 03-27-2002, 11:32 AM

Quote:

He didn't make criminals, he made perfect beings, with a free will. They used their will and failed God.

Excellently said! God didn't want us to be puppets, so he made us with a free will. He wanted to be loved by a creature that could choose to love, not one that was just made that way.

Cirdan · 03-27-2002, 11:55 AM

Great! That way it would possible to have people like Hitler.

Or did god fail us? Couldn't we have been created with the free will to chose god and everything else but without the violent urges? Did Jesus die for the sins of the non-christiuon victims of the concentration camps or did they depart hell on earth to hell (in someplace)?

I know there is a theological response to this but I don't remember it.

Khadrane · 03-27-2002, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Or did god fail us? Couldn't we have been created with the free will to chose god and everything else but without the violent urges? Did Jesus die for the sins of the non-christiuon victims of the concentration camps or did they depart hell on earth to hell (in someplace)?

If we could only choose to do good things, then we would still be puppets. God wanted us to love him voluntarily. Jesus died for the sins of everyone. Me, you, even Hitler. All we have to do is accept his gift. That's pretty cool if you ask me.

Cirdan · 03-27-2002, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Khadrane

If we could only choose to do good things, then we would still be puppets. God wanted us to love him voluntarily. Jesus died for the sins of everyone. Me, you, even Hitler. All we have to do is accept his gift. That's pretty cool if you ask me.

You didn't quite answer my question but I see where you are going with it. Any potential sin must be possible so god can feel secure that our acceptance is a free choice. The threat of eternal damnation makes acceptance a bit subjective. Why isn't the consequence of damnantion a secret so that true free will can be exercised? Seems a bit like extortion, otherwise.

Khadrane · 03-27-2002, 12:43 PM

Quote:

You didn't quite answer my question but I see where you are going with it. Any potential sin must be possible so god can feel secure that our acceptance is a free choice. The threat of eternal damnation makes acceptance a bit subjective. Why isn't the consequence of damnantion a secret so that true free will can be exercised? Seems a bit like extortion, otherwise.

Plenty of people know/have heard about hell, and yet they still don't believe. The fact that they know about the consequence isn't changing their mind. Most Christians aren't just Christians so that they don't go to hell. It is also important for us to know the consequences of sin, so we can know what Jesus went through for us. Jesus, Son of God, went to hell for us. He had always been one with the Father, but God turned His back on Him. I don't think I quite answered your question, but it is the best I could do.

jerseydevil · 03-27-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Plenty of people know/have heard about hell, and yet they still don't believe. The fact that they know about the consequence isn't changing their mind.

You don't know about the consequences - so you can't say there is a heaven or hell. Unless you can provide proof that either exists - then it is just your belief and not everyone has to share your belief.

In terms of having heard about something and not believing - a lot of people have heard about reincarnation (which a lot of religions believe in) yet not everyone believes in that. This discussion seems to be concentrating more around the Judeo/Christian religions as if they are the only ones out there. Do you believe that a cow is the holding place for the soul until the next life (not sure if I got that fact right)? Millions of people believe that.

Khadrane · 03-27-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

You don't know about the consequences - so you can't say there is a heaven or hell. Unless you can provide proof that either exists - then it is just your belief and not everyone has to share your belief.

Sorry. I should have put know/heard about twice. I just didn't feel like typing that. That is what I meant though. The point of that post was saying that knowing/believing in/hearing about hell doesn't affect most people's descisions to follow Christ as much as they just want to praise Him and follow Him and such.

BeardofPants · 03-27-2002, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
he made perfect beings

If he made us perfect, then why:

* Is our spine so poorly designed? (Sore neck/back anyone?)
* Why are our feet so susceptible to collapsed arches?
* Why is our brain case so weak? Especially in the temporal region?
* Why are our hips so weak?
* Why is our ribcage so small (ie squashes lungs)
* Why the hell did he give us a chin? What purpose is that? No other animal has a chin.

And before you site the garden of eden sin, remember this, God is supposed to have created us in his own image (which is far from perfect, if you ask me!), and we have supposedly stayed in that image from the time of creation. Since our bodies aren't perfect, then he must have made us imperfectly. What does this mean? God is an imperfect being? That downgrades him somewhat.

Now, all of the above can be explained by natural selection, and evolutionary processes. Natural selection, and the other mechanisms act on the organism, and the organism adapts to the best possible fitness, not the PERFECT one. That is why there have been extinctions. because an organism has selected poorly. And since we are imperfect in our skeletal makeup anyway, (anyone else want to tackly the other functions?), this fits more with an evolutionary process, which, by the way, can explain the chin, than one of a perfect divine creation, in which our image has remained unchanged.

olsonm · 03-27-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

If he made us perfect, then why:

* Is our spine so poorly designed? (Sore neck/back anyone?)
* Why are our feet so susceptible to collapsed arches?
* Why is our brain case so weak? Especially in the temporal region?
* Why are our hips so weak?
* Why is our ribcage so small (ie squashes lungs)
* Why the hell did he give us a chin? What purpose is that? No other animal has a chin.

What gives you the confidence to say these things are imperfect? I agree that the argument from 'perfection' is a bad one but so is the argument from 'imperfection'.

jerseydevil · 03-27-2002, 05:29 PM

Well we are imperfect. Take wisdom teeth or the appendix or tonsils - none of these serve any purpose anymore. Did "god" just have some extra parts lying around that he shoved in us??? Science points to an explanation - at least for the wisdom teeth and appendix - they were used when we were vegetarians. But as man started eating meat - our whole digestive track changed. I don't know if they have any ide why we have tonsils.

Rána Eressëa · 03-27-2002, 05:33 PM

To Khadrane: How can I go to a place that doesn't exist?

To emplynx: To be perfect is to be without flaw. God did not make us perfect because we are flawed. Otherwise, there would be order and not chaos, there would be love and not hate, there would be peace and not war, etc. This is your image of perfect? That's pretty sad.

I think if there was a god, he would have created us just to have fun with. He's basically a comedian. Just look at what he has made. Apparently he "made" me for a reason, just like everyone else, and if your entire life is mapped out ahead of time, how the hello does free will exist? Because if I have free will I could choose to steer clear of his "plan" for me, but I can't. Your "free will" is an illusion. Either we're here for a big important reason/plan/fate, or there's free will and god does not control our destiny and we are just here for his entertainment.

olsonm · 03-27-2002, 05:42 PM

Tonsils perform an important function in immunity. As for wisdom teeth, I don't know what happened to yours, but I still have mine (I'm 22). Just because science hasn't found a function for something doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

afro-elf · 03-27-2002, 05:43 PM

in radio-dating was the difference between

precision and accurarcy?

BeardofPants · 03-27-2002, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by olsonm

What gives you the confidence to say these things are imperfect? I agree that the argument from 'perfection' is a bad one but so is the argument from 'imperfection'.

And you think they are?

Twilight · 03-27-2002, 05:46 PM

Adam and Eve while in the garden of Eden were perfect. Once they had to leve the garden and when sin came into the world, that is when they became imperfect. To sum it up, we were created to be perfect, but it is no longer so because we chose to sin.

olsonm · 03-27-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants

And you think they are?

No, I think arguing from 'perfection' or 'imperfection' is invalid because (im)perfection is subjective.

afro-elf · 03-27-2002, 05:49 PM

the human eye;

the photorecptors are backward reducing visual acuity

there is a hole where fibers enter the eye = blindspot

squids don't have this problem buy vert's do

swallow and chew through the same whole = choking

afro-elf · 03-27-2002, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by olsonm

No, I think arguing from 'perfection' or 'imperfection' is invalid because (im)perfection is subjective.

as can be seen above we could have been BETTER designed

olsonm · 03-27-2002, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf

as can be seen above we could have been BETTER designed

Better in your opinion. People seem to think I'm arguing for 'creationism'. I'm not.

03-27-2002, 11:55 AM	#3
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	Great! That way it would possible to have people like Hitler. Or did god fail us? Couldn't we have been created with the free will to chose god and everything else but without the violent urges? Did Jesus die for the sins of the non-christiuon victims of the concentration camps or did they depart hell on earth to hell (in someplace)? I know there is a theological response to this but I don't remember it. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

03-27-2002, 05:29 PM	#11
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Well we are imperfect. Take wisdom teeth or the appendix or tonsils - none of these serve any purpose anymore. Did "god" just have some extra parts lying around that he shoved in us??? Science points to an explanation - at least for the wisdom teeth and appendix - they were used when we were vegetarians. But as man started eating meat - our whole digestive track changed. I don't know if they have any ide why we have tonsils. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

03-27-2002, 05:33 PM	#12
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	To Khadrane: How can I go to a place that doesn't exist? To emplynx: To be perfect is to be without flaw. God did not make us perfect because we are flawed. Otherwise, there would be order and not chaos, there would be love and not hate, there would be peace and not war, etc. This is your image of perfect? That's pretty sad. I think if there was a god, he would have created us just to have fun with. He's basically a comedian. Just look at what he has made. Apparently he "made" me for a reason, just like everyone else, and if your entire life is mapped out ahead of time, how the hello does free will exist? Because if I have free will I could choose to steer clear of his "plan" for me, but I can't. Your "free will" is an illusion. Either we're here for a big important reason/plan/fate, or there's free will and god does not control our destiny and we are just here for his entertainment. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 03-27-2002 at 05:44 PM.

03-27-2002, 05:42 PM	#13
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	jerseydevil Tonsils perform an important function in immunity. As for wisdom teeth, I don't know what happened to yours, but I still have mine (I'm 22). Just because science hasn't found a function for something doesn't mean one doesn't exist. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

03-27-2002, 05:43 PM	#14
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	in radio-dating was the difference between precision and accurarcy? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-27-2002, 05:46 PM	#16
Twilight Elven Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wilmore, KY Posts: 269	Adam and Eve while in the garden of Eden were perfect. Once they had to leve the garden and when sin came into the world, that is when they became imperfect. To sum it up, we were created to be perfect, but it is no longer so because we chose to sin. __________________ Sometimes I wonder how many monkeys with typewritters it would take to reproduce what I just wrote.

03-27-2002, 05:49 PM	#18
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	the human eye; the photorecptors are backward reducing visual acuity there is a hole where fibers enter the eye = blindspot squids don't have this problem buy vert's do swallow and chew through the same whole = choking __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

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