REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

I would really appreciate it if someone could explain, as concisely as possible, what exactly Wicca is and where it comes from. I know three people who claim to be Wiccans, but none of them agree about what Wicca is, or if it is even a religion. (One in particular seems to be inclined to re-write history, and makes some pretty outrageous claims.) This leads me to think that two of the three aren't what they claim to be, or that two out of three haven't a clue about what they claim to be.

--Dave

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ru: Actually, Collyridian, according to the person I talked with.

Starr: The threefold rule doesn't apply if it's for the persons own good, does it? I remember an ex-Wiccan complaining about that some Wiccans will try to twist any vengeance etc. into "for someone's own good" to avoid this.

Dave: Wicca was founded in the 1940s by a man named Gardner. Anyway, it is a very nature-based religion, which, if I remember correctly, believes that all of the pagan gods are only variants on the God and the Goddess; as a whole, Wicca is much more centered on the Goddess than the God. The Wiccan rede is "An it harm none, do what ye will." There are 161 Laws which are used in some Wiccan traditions, I believe. As Starr said, magic is to Wiccans basically what prayer is to Christians. Of course, I'm not Wiccan, so I'm not an expert.

[brownjenkins]

I want to become Buddhist, don't know where to start though! As I know it, there are 3 branches: Zen, Tibetan, and something more close to what Siddhartha taught. I want to be of the last one, I'd appreciate any directions

here are a couple of the better books i have read on buddhism:

Excellent intro to Buddhism

Tibetan

Buddhism & Christianity (positive-oriented comparison)

Zen

and my favorite... not necessary on buddhism, but one of the best non-secular books on the whole concept of religion:

The Power of Myth

[Rían]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By the way, Rian:

I'm sorry, but I seem to have been propagating heresy. Evidently, the Church does not sanction asking the saints for direct intervention, but only for intercession. Oops... My apologies.

No prob - I'll pray for you

Does intercession mean basically asking them to ask God for help? IOW, what's the def. ?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Falagar
I just have an interesting question for you Christians (don't know if you've seen it before, or found an answer):
God has unlimited power, right? So he can create whatever he wants, and has unlimited strength. Question: Can he then create a stone that he himself cannot lift?

A silly question perhaps, but I had to ask.

Falagar - I wish I knew how you were asking this, but I'll go ahead and treat it as a serious question, since at one point in my life, the question troubled me.

I don't like to quote from books too often, because I think it's more valuable for people to be able to put things into their own words, but I think C. S. Lewis has such an excellent answer to this, and it makes such sense, that I'll quote him:

C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
[God's] Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say "God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it," you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words "God can." It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Sorry this response is so late - let me know if you see it - I'll PM you if I don't see a response from you

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Hi everyone.

Hi!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian: Yup.

A Catholic Dictionary:
Intercession is the praying by one person on behalf of another, following the word of St. Paul, "I desire, therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksigivings be made for all men"...

Invocation of the Saints It is the teaching of the Church that God enables the saints to hear and see the needs of those on earth; that they present our petitions before the throne of God; and consequently, that we may pray to them. This is part of the cotrine of the communion of saints.
"We employ two forms of prayer, differing in the manner of address; for to God we say properly, 'Have mercy on us, hear us': to the saints, 'Pray for us'...the greatest care must taken by all not to attribute to any other that which belongs to God" () (Catechism of the Council of Trent), though this is a matter of the intention rather than of the words used. Invocation of our Lady and other saints does not supplant prayer to God, but is by way of reinforcement thereto, as wehn one asks a friend for help in confirmation of one's own efforts in any matter...

[Rían]

Tanks (Sherman? ...)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

(after spending 2.5 minutes trying to figure out what "tanks means... ) Sherman?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
(after spending 2.5 minutes trying to figure out what "tanks means... ) Sherman?

Rian's 'tanks' was indeed a "thanks"... the Sherman Tank was a notable US WW2 tank... named for a US WW1 general, I believe. So the "sherman" was a pun on the use of 'tanks' for 'thanks'

(EDIT: Rian - be very careful... our ages are showing!)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I figured out the "tanks", it was just the Sherman I was having trouble with. Thanks.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
(EDIT: Rian - be very careful... our ages are showing!)

*takes her Geritol*

[Guillaume le Maréchal]

Rian, excellent use of CS Lewis in reply to Falagar’s question... there’s no point excusing yourself for quoting his words .

--Dave

[Rían]

Yes, I think it's an excellent answer - can't wait to meet the fellow!

[Ruinel]

Freakin' spammers

And now... back on topic.

Discussing morality and it's ties to religous and nonreligious origins.

[brownjenkins]

i have a question on morality:

obviously you can be either an athiest, agnostic or believer of some kind and live a moral life... any of these people can also be immoral (i could list a few popes for you )... so in the end, is this idea that one must believe in god to live a moral life valid?

[GrayMouser]

From Rian, from the Gay thread

What I AM saying is that IMO, a logically necessary deduction, given a premise of atheism, is moral relativism.

I must disagree. There are many atheists who, from their own premises, would totally reject that.

The followers of Ayn Rand certainly would. They call themselves Objectivists because they think that their beliefs are as logically valid as 1+1=2.

Amongst which is the idea that belief in God is necessarily Evil.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
From Rian, from the Gay thread



I must disagree. There are many atheists who, from their own premises, would totally reject that.

The followers of Ayn Rand certainly would. They call themselves Objectivists because they think that their beliefs are as logically valid as 1+1=2.

Amongst which is the idea that belief in God is necessarily Evil.

Yes, but there's theory and practice... examine the fruit of Ayn Rand's own life...

[GrayMouser]

Well, I'm far from being a follower of Ayn Rand- I was just using her and her movement as an (extreme) example of non- relativistic atheism. Marxism would be equally valid.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Well, I'm far from being a follower of Ayn Rand- I was just using her and her movement as an (extreme) example of non- relativistic atheism. Marxism would be equally valid.

Uh-oh... you wanna start discussing the kind of morality that sprang from Marxism???