10-31-2003, 01:59 PM | #321 | |
Quasi Evil
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(cont. from previous post)
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10-31-2003, 06:01 PM | #322 |
Elf Lord
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I didn't read it all, because I didn't have time.
I wasn't at home in the last three days and don't know what exactly happpened. But: the letter of the pilots was signed by 27 pilots - another letter was sent, with more then 100 signs against the first one. The barrier may cost a lot, and I do believe it's not fair in some places, and that the Palestinians should get more, but it would prevent the death of any people. I do think it worth it. That's what I have to say right now. I do know about something with Yaalon, not sure what. It didn't seem interesting - and now it can't be find in the media. |
11-02-2003, 01:58 PM | #323 |
Elf Lord
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This might be slightly off-topic but I think it was important to bring up.
Many muslims find western culture abhorrent. For example, in Sweden immigrant men murder their women just because they want to live the way Swedish girls live and in doing so these women shame the family. Several times this has happened. One man was waiting outside a discoteque and when his sister came out he stabbed her 41 times. Another man had threatened to kill his daughter and when she went to visit her family he was waiting outside the appartment and shot in the head coldbloodedly. OK. There exist sociapaths among western men as well who beat up their wives and molest their children but that doesn't excuse what muslims have been doing for thousands of years to their wives and daughters and still do. Last edited by Grey_Wolf : 11-02-2003 at 02:00 PM. |
11-13-2005, 11:48 PM | #324 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Here's a bump. This topic never gets old or boring.
Is it primarily Muslim kids who are rioting like crazy in Paris and elsewhere in France right now? (Like Lief was saying over in the Paris is Burning thread earlier,) Is it because the secular French nation and the very religious immigrant muslim minorities cannot integrate? Should they even HAVE to? Why, why should the French nation be obliged to integrate people they do not want there? And yes, I'm well aware of how controversial it is for me to say that, but frankly I don't care. If conditions are so unfavourable for the Algerian muslims in Paris, perhaps they might do well to consider returning to their own respective original country, whatever country that might be, and make things better and life better for themselves, there, rather than torch everything in France because life's so rough for them in France.
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~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Last edited by Lotesse : 11-13-2005 at 11:59 PM. |
11-14-2005, 12:42 AM | #325 | ||
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Interesting bump Lotesse. I don't know if all or even most of the rioters in France right now are Muslim.
I don't think I know anyone who's Muslim. But if I did meet someone, the first thing I'd probably think is, "I don't know anything about Islam." I am under the impression that it is a peaceful religion though, and moderate Muslims insist the Jihad is a spiritual battle within oneself.
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11-14-2005, 12:50 AM | #326 |
Fair Dinkum
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Quick post cause I really should study, but you're right Nurv, "Islam" actually means "peace" in Arabic. ("to be in peaceful submission; to surrender; to obey; peace")
At its core, I think Islam is quite a beautiful religion (although admittedly, I don't particularly like institutionalised religion.) Their prayer chants are lovely! It's such a shame that the fundamentalists had to distort their religion in such a manner that Westerners just think the whole religion is about global domination with Muslim beliefs. |
11-14-2005, 03:46 AM | #327 | ||
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My personal view is that if these immigrants are now legal citizens of the country, the French have a responsibility to be welcoming and to enthusiastically embrace the newcomers into their society. The immigrants also have a responsibility. There responsibility is to seek to fit in, and to respect and hopefully adapt to the culture they enter. If the French truly have a problem with the immigrants (as many seem to), I really think it's their responsibility to change their immigration policy. They must embrace those who are citizens, but they shouldn't be required to accept more and more citizens when they're already struggling with unemployment and poverty. If France is unable to cope with open immigration laws, perhaps they should tighten them. Quote:
There certainly are some very beautiful teachings in Islam. However, I'm afraid the ugly is also present. I've encountered some very fine Muslim teachings, but also some which are very violent, and would seem to justify many modern terrorists. I don't believe that the suicide bombers are misinterpreting the Koran at all. Though some interpret Jihad as spiritual war, history tells us that Mohammad and his immediate followers interpreted it as physical warfare. Mohammad took Saudi Arabia through force of arms, and his immediate followers attacked the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires, and defeated both. Violence became part of the religion when Mohammad experienced persecution from his native tribe the Qur'aysh, because Mohammad and his followers felt the need to defend themselves. They went beyond defending themselves, however. When they wanted control of a town, they took it and expelled those who disagreed with them on religious grounds. They raided caravans, plundering and taking hostages. They attacked peaceful Jewish settlements because they were allied with the Qur'aysh, and slaughtered many innocents. That was all under Mohammad. The Sassanid and Byzantine conquests, along with most of the major Muslim expansion, came under his immediate successors. So anyway, from the history I can see that Islam from the beginning was not a peaceful religion. It did have some marvelous moral teachings, however. Many of its teachings were far superior to the teachings of the pagan polytheist animist tribesmen who lived around him. Muhammad's teachings had many of their roots in Jewish and Christian theologies. The civilization Muhammad's successors established was very sophisticated. It passed down wonderful things to us in literature and medicine. They were highly advanced people, and we owe much to them. Violence was also part of their religion, however, right from the beginning. This is different from Christianity, which in the early centuries of its birth was peaceful and accepted unjust punishment meekly. In the early centuries of Islam's birth, a vast, sprawling new civilization was carved out of the world in bloodshed. It had wonderful as well as terrible aspects to it. It was a mixture of both. I don't believe that the modern Muslim moderate is at all following in Muhammad's footsteps, however. The modern moderate is a different person completely from the zealous and violent warriors that the early Muslims were- and that the modern terrorists are .
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11-14-2005, 03:47 AM | #328 |
Elf Lord
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Bump.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-14-2005, 09:19 AM | #329 | |
Lady of Letters
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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11-14-2005, 09:55 AM | #330 | ||
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No, the key here IMO is better intergration and not stricter immigration. However I'm not sure how the French should procede to achieve that. Quote:
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11-14-2005, 04:48 PM | #331 | |||
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I don't know a lot about Islam, as I said before. But I think there is one important difference between extremists and moderate Muslims. Do you want to live in the past, and try to recreate a carbon copy of history? Do you want to avoid all change and growth, and in the end, stagnate? If the extremists want to recreate exactly what Mohammed was doing (or more accurately, only one thing that Mohammed did), then they are not applying Mohammed's teachings to life right now. On the other hand, moderate Muslims seem to be recognizing the postive teachings of Mohammed, living by them, and abhorring violence. This is quite parallel to moderate Christians. I agree with you that Christianity was very peaceful from its beginning to, I would say, 400 years into its existence when the Roman Emperor Constantine made it the state religion. [facetious]It has all been downhill from there.[/facetious] But really, after we became "offocial", there was a lot of violence in Christianity. We repressed other religions and murdered their followers (Druids and Witches). We fought amongst each other because of theological differences (ongoing violence between Protestants and Catholics). Does this mean Christianity is a violent religion? I don't think so, just like I don't think Islam is a violent religion. People are violent, and they merely use religion as an excuse because of hatred and fear. The Bible might say, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (does it really? That's just embarassing. ), but I will never put that into practice! I, and I imagine, moderate Muslims, are free-thinking people who are thoughtful about their religions. Religion does not mean mindlessly carrying out orders.
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11-14-2005, 07:02 PM | #332 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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Nurv- the witch thing well,that particular verse is old testament, and used in a modern day context is terribly out of place.
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11-14-2005, 07:07 PM | #333 | ||
Fair Dinkum
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In Arabic, Islām ("the submission to God") derives from the three-letter root S-L-M reflecting the meaning "to be in peaceful submission; to surrender; to obey; peace." You're right Jon, Arabic builds words upon such three-letter roots to give you new words which are related semantically. Quote:
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11-14-2005, 09:36 PM | #334 | |||
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-14-2005, 10:48 PM | #335 | |||
Elf Lord
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But anyway, I personally don't yet know enough about the French immigration situation to have any views on whether or not France should change its immigration laws. Quote:
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Some parts of the teachings of both scriptures are obviously only for a certain era. For example, if Muhammad says, "destroy that Jewish village!" that does not mean, "All Muslims are to destroy every Jewish village!" In the same way, when in the Old Testament, God said, "invade Canaan and kill every living thing," he did not mean, "invade any non-Jew (or non-Christian) land and kill every living thing." Passages of this sort are clearly referring to a specific time period. Acting on them in all contexts would be simply ridiculous, to the people of the time as much as to us. Islam and Christianity both should be, I think, interpreted literally except when it's absolutely clear from the text that it's not intended to be taken so. For example, there are times in the Bible when people see visions or have dreams. Because of the very nature of these experiences people had, it is plain that they often are intended as symbols, metaphors or allegories for other things, and are not intended to be taken literally. However, when a passage makes a declaration of a historical fact, for example, "the armies of Assyria surrounded Jerusalem in the time of King Hezekiah," it is clear from context that they are intended as historical fact. Actually, many times these passages have actually been since proven to be historical fact because of archaelogical finds. Muhammad claimed to receive his instructions from angels, who received their instructions from God. Muhammad claimed to be presenting timeless truth, many times, when he presented moral teachings or commands for his followers throughout time to obey. Jesus took the same attitude (though slightly different, as he believed he was God). He too prayed for his disciples in future generations, and talked about those who would follow him all the way up to the end of the world. He clearly was thinking in advance about future generations. In many of these cases, it would be inappropriate to say that the words of Jesus or Muhammad can be adjusted to fit with our more advanced modern moral understanding. The only way we could get away with this is by saying that they were not hearing from God. And that would make Christians not Christians and Muslims not Muslims.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-18-2005, 01:12 PM | #336 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My husband told me about this last night, and I thought it would be interesting to post here and discuss:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-18-2005 at 01:14 PM. |
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11-18-2005, 01:25 PM | #337 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-18-2005, 01:46 PM | #338 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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(1) Why are you so quiet?
google under "muslims peace" one example of many the short story... peace doesn't sell... just because you don't see it on the nightly news does not mean it does not exist (2) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian? the vast majority of the palestinian population is muslim, and since it is not just about nationalism, but religion, it is not likely that the terrorists would trust those outside their own faith to participate muslims are far from unique when it comes to terrorism... christian terrorism (3) Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country? history, culture, beliefs... see this article (4) Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam? religion is a very powerful motivator, especially to those who have little to live for and look only to "the life after"... leaders take advantage of this, much as the popes did in the middle ages (5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions? it goes back to (3)... authoritarian governments typically persecute all but one religion and cultural background... it provides a scapegoat and helps to perpetuate fear and dissent, which perpetuates their own rule... hitler did the same in germany, and their belief system was based upon the christian god
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11-18-2005, 02:51 PM | #339 |
Quasi Evil
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Sorry but that qualifies as "bashing" as far as Im concerned. Several of the questions just make wrong assumptions (no muslim ever protests against terrorism? come on...) and several others are disingenuous and meant only as a poke at islam and to show the superiority of christianity. This must be anti-anything but christianity day on the moot or something...
What these kinds of posts always prove to me is not that one religion is bad and one is good but that religion IN GENERAL is such a dividing phenomenon when placed in the hands of humans... Shows the flaws of a religious construct in a system flawed by definition because its designed and run by humans
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
11-18-2005, 02:57 PM | #340 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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