10-17-2008, 02:25 PM | #321 |
Elf Lord
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Well, Coffeehouse, I'm not sure I can live anywhere in taxlessness, in this country. I mean, short of being completely homeless. In most places, I'd pay a sales tax on almost anything I bought. I pay income taxes, over a certain amount of income. I pay various wage taxes on anything I earn. I pay land taxes on any piece of forest I inhabited, or someone else would, if someone else owned it.
But the point here is, the government doesn't use a standard of "awfulness" to restrict liberty. It's just their hobby.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
10-17-2008, 05:12 PM | #322 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Anyway, obviously we won't agree on this matter of opinion. And again, the "awfulness" was referring to punitive action on the part of the government, specifically the "worst" type of punitive action, not things like zoning laws (for which I"m grateful).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-17-2008 at 05:13 PM. |
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10-17-2008, 05:18 PM | #323 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Again, I think LALL is an overall thing in our society, superseded only by reasonable limitations. But in terms of abortion, some might say the LALL concept supports a woman being able to choose to abort. However, certainly the pro-lifers would say that LALL means that the baby should be able to live!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-17-2008, 05:21 PM | #324 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-17-2008, 06:00 PM | #325 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I disagree. I think that there is no philosophical justification for the death penalty. The innate value and dignity of a human person is simply too high for it to be altogether right to destroy a human person.
That said, there are some circumstances where it would be necessary. For instance, if leaving a particular criminal alive would have serious detrimental effects on society. If someone is kept imprisoned without the ability to communicate with the people they know outside, the only way there would be these serious detrimental effects would in if they had a good probability of escaping. Which isn't the case in the vast majority of the Western world. So, in short, "Death penalty is bad: some circumstances excuse it as the lesser of two evils: these circumstances are or can be non-existent in highly developed nations".
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
10-17-2008, 09:15 PM | #326 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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What they care about is their belief system. "Life" (the concept) is what is important, not simply life.
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10-17-2008, 09:22 PM | #327 | |
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10-17-2008, 09:25 PM | #328 |
Elven Maiden
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That's what I'm saying, BJ. I don't think "murder" is wrong as a concept. I just don't think it's a positive thing in most circumstances.
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10-17-2008, 10:19 PM | #329 |
Elf Lord
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The philosophical rationale for support of the death penalty and the privileging of the in utero human is the same: the concept of desert.
de·sert3 /dɪˈzɜrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-zurt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. Often, deserts. reward or punishment that is deserved: to get one's just deserts. 2. the state or fact of deserving reward or punishment. 3. the fact of deserving well; merit; virtue. [Origin: 1275–1325; ME < OF deserte, n. use of fem. ptp. of deservir to deserve] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/desert The person sentenced to punishment is deserving of that because of their actions up to and including the death penalty. The in utero human is deserving of protection because of its innocence and blamelessness. The zygote onward deserves being well, merits the chance at life, and has the virtue of innocence.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-17-2008, 10:38 PM | #330 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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10-17-2008, 10:41 PM | #331 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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I agree
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-20-2008, 01:02 PM | #332 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-20-2008, 02:14 PM | #333 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No. Obviously, we as taxpayers have to pay for their upkeep. However, this amounts to a hell of a lot less than the dignity of a human life.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
10-20-2008, 09:44 PM | #334 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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IR - I don't see how this makes sense. Can YOU determine which 'zygotes' will commit a capital offense 30 years later? Clearly, none of us can! I don't understand why you claim it's a 'house of cards' when someone believes in letting them live while they have done no harm, but insists that they pay for their crimes once committed. Capital punishment is one of the difficult issues (war being another) which has no consensus in Christianity. If one looks at only a very limited amount of information about Christianity - yes, you could conclude that it would always prohibit capital punishment. However - there is a fuller picture. I myself am against capital punishment. There are times that I have been for it in the past. But for my part, I have concluded that we don't mete it out even-handedly, that 'the system' is filled with injustices, that we convict far too many innocent people - and that minorities and the poor are certainly over-represented in those sentences than the rest of the populace (even looking only at convictions for a specific crime). That - as well as the hope I would hold out for any (rightly) convicted criminal's repentance and salvation. Although - some Christians can come up with good counter-arguments to all that (even that facing one's "moment of truth" may incline one to get serious about preparing to meet one's Maker - but I don't hold that to necessarily be true) I just continue to be boggled by those who defend killing the unborn children, but would oppose exacting payment of life for life from a convicted killer (if rightly convicted). I'm not pressing for that latter - but I'm just baffled that the former can be defended in the name of anything moral.
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10-20-2008, 09:45 PM | #335 | |
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10-20-2008, 10:49 PM | #336 | |
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You have not made an argument against the concept of desert, I fear. You have pointed out its potential for, and in human hands capacity to, error in application. You have constructed a house of cards. One can legitimately argue for the preservation of the zygote forward on the basis of desert. One can legitimately argue for the death penalty and lesser punishments on the gradation of harm done, i.e., desert. The 'Mooter who ignores your query is not liable for the death penalty. The coldblooded killer who gets his/her jollies from senseless murder very well does. The concept of desert is not dependent upon its impeccable application but on its merit. Applicability is a different argument.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-20-2008 at 10:50 PM. |
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10-21-2008, 02:34 PM | #337 | |||
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-21-2008, 03:07 PM | #338 | ||
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
Quote:
And I dare say impeccable applicability is a keenly important consideration in this decision! What happens when innocent persons are executed? Is that ok in gods eyes because we thought we were killing a sinner? Or shouldn’t the notion that a person’s ultimate fate is in the hands of god tell us that we need and should not play the roll of overt executioner. That in the end they will get what they deserve. Their just deserts right? Of the ultimate variety…
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-21-2008 at 03:09 PM. |
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10-21-2008, 07:17 PM | #339 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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IR - I really don't have the time or energy (unfortunately - since I wish I could) to keep up with all this, but I will respond to this one part:
I still think that crimes - and their consequences - enter into things, at least at a societal level. Christians understand that crimes and/or sins both (some acts may be both, some just one or the other) - still have their earthly consequences, even if there is room for eternal forgiveness.
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10-21-2008, 08:41 PM | #340 |
Elf Lord
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IR,
You seem under the misapprehension that forgiveness entails the negation of the consequences of the forgiven sin entirely. That is not what Christianity teaches. Christianity teaches the REDEMPTION of the sin, that is, not its negation but its being re-wrought into good. I am going to quote Dorothy L. Sayers on the subject. "One muddle about forgiveness is of the same kind - forgiveness is the restoration of a good relationship, but it doesn't abolish the consequences of the offence, nor is it going back to where we were before the offence was committed. It's got to be a new relationship (in that sense, certainly, "a fresh start') which contains and transmutes the disturbance caused by the offence. If I borrow money from you and squander it, your forgiving the debt doesn't put bak the money - that's lost and you bear the loss and so "carry the guilt". If I get in a rage with you and throw your best teapot out of a window, no amount of forgiveness will unbreak the teapot - all we can aim for is a relationship in which both you and I can bear to sit down and breakfast together out of a shaving mug without feeling uncomfortable and without an ostentatious avoidance of the subject of teapots. The universe can't "break the iron law of cause and effect" - that would mean an irrational universe; but the effects can be so "made good" that the whole process is redeemed - "O felix culpa-". (THE CHRIST OF THE CREEDS, "The Nature of Redemption", page 91 ff., Dorothy L. Sayers Society publication, 2008). Christianity is founded upon the payment for the penalty of sin by Jesus of Nazareth, God Incarnate, upon the Cross and the re-creation of the whole ruined by sin in the Resurrection. That entails the whole of human life from womb to tomb and the whole of creation from Big Bang to the end of the Creation. And that line about rendering Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's is not out of context but foundational because ultimately Caesar renders to God what is God's. You also committed a fallacy in arguing that all biblical statements are of equal validity without distinction or gradation and equate in your list - apparently - Do no murder with do no killing with do no disobedience et cetera. Innocent persons unjustly accused and executed dut to human fallibility have their sufferings joined to the sufferings of Christ in the redemption of the world, just as the sufferings of any unjustly are so treated in God's economy. But we have to strive to be just and not to inflict knowingly such suffering. That becomes culpable sin and has its own consequences in the lives of the innocent and the do-ers of the deeds. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God. In this regard as the ultimate arbiter of good and evil and cause and effect and separating the wheat from chaff, you remember correctly. But that does not delimit the appropriate punishment in this world as the consequences of the acts of even the most repentant. This gets into the conceptualization of the fact of sin and the stain of sin. All sin breaks fellowship with God before it breaks fellowship with humanity or the planet or spiritual beings or our inner being. God graciously repairs that breach in His Son Jesus Christ and restores us to right relationship with Himself, others, the planet, spiritual beings, and ourselves - if we let Him. But that doesn't unbreak the broken teapot, does it? The consequences - the stain of sin - remain to be dealt with in the redeemed relationship. And getting one's just desert is part of that process. The ultimate reality is that God is there bearing it with you and that redemption can be done. This is the part where GK Chesterton's remark about Christianity has not been tried and found wanting but it has been tried and found difficult comes into play. If the human in the womb is innocent, is it not unjust to condemn it to death for convenience or even for rape? If the serial murderer is justly accused and convicted, is it just to not yield the consequences of the crime(s) to the perpetrator?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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