The Official US President Election Thread

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

exactly, many americans fail to realize how important preschool and grammer school are to developing minds... arguably more important than higher education... it seems strange that in a capitalist economy such as our own that so few seem to realize that you get what you pay for

It is erroneous to act like we have a NATIONAL education system - because we don't, but I do agree with you that many people don't put an importance on education, whether it's preschool, elementary, or high school. But education is a state issue and all states have different education requirements. The only state you have a say in when it comes to education is Massachusetts. I have a say in the NJ education system. NJ does put an emphasis on preschool and grammar school, but I know from living in Indiana that they didn't put the same emphasis on education. If states want to compete in a high tech job market, they will have to compete with the states which do have high education standards. They will have to improve their education systems or fall behind. The "No Child Left Behind Act" was implemented to force these failing states to change.

Here is information on the NJ Department of Education.

If we want to talk about education in the US, then everyone will have to present their own state's department of education websites, so they can be compared.

[brownjenkins]

good point... i just appreciated the gaffer's comments on teachers being paid at university levels... yes there are variations state to state... but i think true improvement is going to warrant an exponential increase in the amount of money the US puts towards education... i'm not too keen on the federal government controling how local money is spent... but they are the only part of the political system in the US that can raise money in a way to change education throughout the country

i think it's just as important to my own children's future how we'll students are educated in places like indiana as it is how my own are

[EarthBound]

It's been proven that the best way to help a "people" is through education. Food and Shelter are immediate needs, but education leads development of economy, civil government, better health care (both self <which is very important for women> and organized) and hopefully civility in general. Though, this is mainly provable with examples of communities and regions, since so many nations fall victim to the more powerful (rich or otherwise) who are often thugs in nice clothes.

I taught highshool science at a private academy for several years and loved it for the most part. I can see all sides to the issue.

1. Test are "good" because they give accountability that our children are being taught useful information at some acceptable standard.

2. Test are "poor" because they are often (and almost always) an inaccurate thermometer of the student body. (like eating the cherry off a hot-fudge sundae and grading the entire sundae, you miss the true compilation plus possible a really sweet desert.....hhhmmmmmm chocolate.

Politics rarely help in a micro-arena, but they play an important role in the macro.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

good point... i just appreciated the gaffer's comments on teachers being paid at university levels... yes there are variations state to state... but i think true improvement is going to warrant an exponential increase in the amount of money the US puts towards education... i'm not too keen on the federal government controling how local money is spent... but they are the only part of the political system in the US that can raise money in a way to change education throughout the country

From NJ's experience with it's school systems, money has a lot less to do with the quality of education then people like to give credit to. NJ was and I think still is paying far more to it's failing schools. Throwing money at it isn't always the solution. Many times it takes a change in attitude to the importance of education, that involves getting parents involved, demonstrating to students that education is important, and so forth. I'm not saying that money has nothing to do with it though.

i think it's just as important to my own children's future how we'll students are educated in places like indiana as it is how my own are

I agree, for the success of the United States that it is important for ALL schools, regardless of what state they are in - strive for better education. That's where the No Child Left Behind Act comes into play. Before there were no national standards, nor really unified reporting standards. I find it odd that states where education is a key priority, No Child Left Behind wasn't condemned whereas states which aren't as prepared, seem to be the ones who do complain. NJ already had, by state law since 1995, required a school report card. I have gotten a school report card in the mail on our school system every year since I've been back in NJ. Now No Child Left Behind requires report cards for ALL schools around the country be sent to the federal government.

NEW JERSEY REPORT CARD: Commissioner's Message

The federal No Child Left Behind (NCLB) Act has imposed new accountability and reporting requirements on states. The Department of Education has decided that, since it has an already established school-level report card to satisfy the 1995 state law, it would be easier for districts and schools if the state reported to the public the school-, district-, and state-level information in the areas mandated by NCLB.

The elements addressed in the NCLB reports are as follows:

* Identification of schools in need of improvement and consecutive years the school has not made adequate yearly progress (AYP);
* Attendance rates by grade level;
* High school dropout rates;
* Information on highly qualified teachers,
* Assessment data for all state tests disaggregated by the required sub-groups showing two years of data for all students and the comparison with the AYP proficiency standard; and
* Links to assessment data in receiving schools for students in schools without testing grades.

Under NCLB rules, the federal accountability report must be issued annually before the opening of school. This necessitates having assessment data ready for release in the summer. Since our new NJ ASK 4 test was administered late in May of 2003, the results will not be ready before the opening of school in 2003. For the 2002-03 release of data, the department had to create a transition plan this year

Here is the report card for our two high schools in my town -
West Windsor-Plainsboro HS-NORTH CAMPUS 2002-03 SCHOOL REPORT CARD
West Windsor-Plainsboro HS-SOUTH CAMPUS 2002-03 SCHOOL REPORT CARD

Here is the national report card

[The Gaffer]

Agreed that it's not just a question of funding. However, money is a massive issue where a school has crumbling facilities and out of date equipment. Here in the UK, where education is also funded locally rather than centrally (though local authorities get a grant from central government), salary increases and capital investment projects have been supported by more funding from the centre.

It seems likely that the states which were already prepared for these sorts of standards don't object so much because it won't cost them as much to implement; states which don't already have similar schemes will face far higher costs to establish the system.

From what I've read about it since, it seems that most of the objections to No Child Left Behind are that the federal government hasn't come through with the money they promised to support implementation.

[Beleg Strongbow]

I agree that some regulation is necessary, and that the unprepared schools are the ones getting whacked. It's just that NCLB is an unfunded mandate: there is no money coming to the schools to help with the new changes.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Beleg Strongbow

... It's just that NCLB is an unfunded mandate: there is no money coming to the schools to help with the new changes.

But do you realize how many things that government... at ALL levels, requires each of us to do without providing the funding for it? Even mowing my lawn (including the city easement past the sidewalk) and shoveling the snow from the city sidewalk in front of my house are essentially 'unfunded mandates'!

EDIT: Plus - you and me, as taxpayers - are going to cover the cost either way. If the federal government funds it, we'll pay for it with federal taxes. If the state is required to provide funding, we'll pay for it with state taxes. This stuff about 'unfunded mandates' is just more bureacratic griping, as far as I can tell.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But do you realize how many things that government... at ALL levels, requires each of us to do without providing the funding for it? Even mowing my lawn (including the city easement past the sidewalk) and shoveling the snow from the city sidewalk in front of my house are essentially 'unfunded mandates'!

Also, I have to keep my car in working order - otherwise it won't pass inspection. I have to take it to the inspection station and so forth. I don't get money for my time nor do get paid to keep my car running in good condition. Those are also unfunded mandates.

Another thing, funding comes from Congress - not from the president. Yet everyone is bitching about the president not funding it. If you want it funded - then start writing your congressmen. Even if the president didn't ask for funding - or hasn't pushed for it - doesn't meant congress can't fund it. And as Valandil said - not everything the US Government or any government requires is funded - sometimes that part is left up to you.

The more I hear people talk on entmoot the more I see people being completely ignorant of the way our government works, the role of Congress, the role of the president and the role of the supreme court. I would suggest people start reading some books on the US Government and start learning how our system works (checks and balances isn't some good marketing slogan you know ). I can not believe the number of people who do not understand the electorial college, or what congress does, versus what the president can do, versus what the supreme court does.

Here are some important books to read to get people started...
Decision in Philadelphia (this is an easy book to read and ANYONE who can make it through Lord of the Rings - should be able to read this in no time)
Federalist Papers
Anti-Federalist Papers

The last two you can read on the web. There are plenty of sites that have them up since they are public domain.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

EDIT: Plus - you and me, as taxpayers - are going to cover the cost either way. If the federal government funds it, we'll pay for it with federal taxes. If the state is required to provide funding, we'll pay for it with state taxes. This stuff about 'unfunded mandates' is just more bureacratic griping, as far as I can tell.

Very good additional point. I'm surprised I didn't point that out.

[Mercutio]

Presidential debate tonight!!! 9:00-10:30 Eastern. Everybody watch .

[Janny]

*Is not Eastern. Has stupid UK TV. Pouts*

[sun-star]

Will it be too late for Newsnight?

EDIT: *Is stupid*. Of course it will.

[Janny]

If it weren't it would probably not be shown... uninteruppted coverage from the Green Party conference or something...

It's actually too late for the morning papers too. Radio tomorrow it is.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Janny

If it weren't it would probably not be shown... uninteruppted coverage from the Green Party conference or something...

It's actually too late for the morning papers too. Radio tomorrow it is.

You should be able to get it on the web too. Most things like this are available on the web for several days. (If you have high speed access)

[Falagar]

Unfortunately I'll be working when they're showing the debate here in Norway. JD, could you provide any links when it's come?

I'm not very familiar with American web-papers and I don't have much time to fool around looking for it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Unfortunately I'll be working when they're showing the debate here in Norway. JD, could you provide any links when it's come?

I'm not very familiar with American web-papers and I don't have much time to fool around looking for it.

No problem. Actually I would recommend going with C-SPAN . They should have it available because they had the National Conventions on their website before. I'll keep an eye open for them though - because they won't post the links until during or after the broadcast. C-SPAN is a really good source.

[jerseydevil]

Here is the debate from C-SPAN - it should open up real player

If you can't see it go to this page - Presidentiall Debates.

[Rían]

missed most of the debate - oldest son at late orthodontic appt ...

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

But do you realize how many things that government... at ALL levels, requires each of us to do without providing the funding for it? Even mowing my lawn (including the city easement past the sidewalk) and shoveling the snow from the city sidewalk in front of my house are essentially 'unfunded mandates'!

Yeah, and so's putting litter into bins instead of dropping it at your feet.

The difference, of course, is that you are not being asked to fundamentally change the way you do your job. It seems naive to attempt reform of an entire profession like this and expect it just to happen without proper funding.

To reiterate my view of the introduction of standards in the UK, they've only worked because there have been resources put behind them (for training, curriculum development and for teachers' pay). EVen then, many teachers feel they have to spend more and more time on paperwork and testing when they should be teaching.

[The Gaffer]

OK, so what are the verdicts?

THe papers here seem to range between a "victory on points for Kerry" (Times) to a stronger "first blood to Kerry" (Guardian). The NY Times seems to lean towards Kerry too.

It would be particularly interesting to hear from people who were, or are, undecided.