11-11-2005, 02:23 PM | #321 | |
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11-11-2005, 02:36 PM | #322 | |
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11-11-2005, 02:54 PM | #323 |
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Well its other school boards around the country as well (PA, GA, some others). And its not only the creationist wackos its the attack on things like stem cell research and environmental sciences and of course the whole celibacy as sex education thing. Its across the board really. Any issue the fundamentalists see as counter to their way of thinking. Hopefully most of these will be thwarted but they got quite a big head after the election last year that they felt gave them a "moral mandate" to reak havoc on so many straight forward widely accepted things. And all this because of gay marriage and to some extent abortion bringing so many folks to the polls to vote republican. What does gay marriage have to do with evolution anyway exactly?
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11-11-2005, 03:40 PM | #324 |
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good point... but if history is any indicator, they will go too far and things will once again swing back in the other direction... the last few elections have been extremely close, so it won't take much
i'm just glad i live in the northeast
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11-11-2005, 07:08 PM | #325 | ||||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 11-11-2005 at 07:10 PM. |
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11-11-2005, 07:24 PM | #326 |
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How in blazes is it an intelligence "like ours" if it can design life from near-scratch? We can't do that. We have no hope of doing that any time in the foreseeable future. It is definitively unlike ours in that its very defining characteristic, the capability to design life, is beyond our capacity.
The crucial thing about SETI is that it looks for things within our capabilities. That means that we know something exists that is able to do it, and therefore we can compare what we see (ie a radio signal) with what radio signals produced by something (us) capable of designing their production look like. ID is totally and completely not like that. We cannot compare it to any known design because we know of nothing that is capable of such a design. We don't know what the differences between designed life and undesigned life are or would be. There is no possibility of scientific comparison like there is for SETI. What sort of intelligence "recognizable to us" is capable of designing life? None. We can't recognize it because we have no proof that such an intelligence exists anywhere. We CAN recognize our own kind and level of intelligence, as SETI looks to do because we can compare it with US. If humans were extinct, and no creatures capable of making arrowheads existed or were remembered, and a scientific, intelligent supergoat found an arrowhead, it would think it was just a natural rock formation. Why? Because it would have no knowledge of or proof of a being capable of making such an object, and therefore it would have to attribute its creation to random chance. "what are things that are measureable, defineable characteristics of things produced by intelligence?" - What things? As it stands, this question is unanswerably broad, because different "things" have different characteristics produced by intelligence acting on them. An arrowhead and a candy bar, for instance, each have clear indicators of being designed (since we know there is someone to have designed them). But they don't share any single design flag that says universally "if this is present, it was designed." Each case of design has its own indicators. But we cannot know what designed life would look like, so we cannot say what the characteristics of LIFE under conditions of intelligent design would be. This is the greatest fallacy to me - the assumption that because I can compare something I know I can make with a similar thing nature made and tell them apart (which, btw, isn't always true, actually, I have to admit), I can somehow extrapolate that to other things, including things I don't know that there is Anyone who can make. I mean, the extrapolation fails if I try to extrapolate "this stone tool has a distinct bulb of percussion, showing someone intentionally struck it at this point - therefore it is designed" onto, say, even a wood tool. "Indicators" or "characteristics" are too broad and variable to extrapolate from one item to another. You can compare radio waves with other radio waves to check for design - you can't compare radio waves to life. And we have no reference point for the correct check, which would be designed-life-to-undesigned-life. All IMHO of course
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11-11-2005, 11:12 PM | #327 | ||
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could you guys make your posts short and sweet, i am so lost in this topic i have no idea what your arguing about, the vatican? american politics? what happened? since Kansas made the changes, now you don't want to talk about it?
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11-12-2005, 03:44 AM | #328 | ||
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I had a post in response to two of your posts if that's more on track (p. 16). Not that I'm hinting.
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11-12-2005, 11:03 AM | #329 | |||
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11-12-2005, 11:43 AM | #330 |
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"short and sweet"? HERE?!
(wait, I just did it!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-12-2005, 11:56 AM | #331 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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...even shorter would be nice
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11-12-2005, 02:19 PM | #332 |
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BTW...Pope Benedict XVI has just officially spoken against evolution, fyi.
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11-12-2005, 02:47 PM | #333 | ||
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thats it bic C, short and, you have established that the topic is indeed, the vatican, so now that kansas has approved the change, what are the evolutionist response on this forum going to be?
almost universally evolutionist have taken to ridiculing, and insulting the state of kansas, and, its people so i already know how some of you are going to answer, but, i'm curious anyway.
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11-12-2005, 03:09 PM | #334 | |||
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How's that for a short post Rohirrim TR!
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11-12-2005, 03:11 PM | #335 | ||
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quite excellent, i'm not against medium length posts you know just big long ones that i don't have time or energy to even try to read
BTW were you going to bring up something from page 16 or whatever or am i getting people mixed up? any way i think my post length seems to be growing hmm....
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Last edited by rohirrim TR : 11-12-2005 at 03:13 PM. |
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11-12-2005, 03:59 PM | #336 |
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I did post about Kansas, rohirrim, a page or so back. Said I disagreed with their definition of science, but because they hadn't published the new standards in full yet I couldn't say much more.
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11-12-2005, 05:18 PM | #337 | |
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11-12-2005, 05:22 PM | #338 | |||
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Last edited by rohirrim TR : 11-12-2005 at 05:26 PM. |
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11-13-2005, 03:36 AM | #339 | ||||
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This is the post I was referring to Rohirrim TR (copied here in full):
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I try to evaluate theories based on the best and most logical arguments for it that I've heard. I think the best arguments reflect the theory most accurately. The stopping point for me with ID as a scientific theory (obviously it is a perfectly valid philosophy/world view/religious theory) is that an Intelligent Designer must exist for the entire theory to exist. In other words, all parts of the Intelligent Design theory depend on God existing. Quote:
Another possibility is that neither ID nor evolution are true. (Though rejection of an entire scientific theory should be due to many diverse and detailed experiments IMO. Accepting or not accepting a philosophy is a personal matter - I think how one evaluates one's beliefs is very personal and hopefully involves careful thought.)
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11-13-2005, 04:43 AM | #340 | ||
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(Ignore this. My last post didn't update the thread.)
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