09-27-2005, 03:08 PM | #321 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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...Lewis? You mean Al Lewis, grandpa of the Munsters?
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09-27-2005, 03:36 PM | #322 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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09-27-2005, 04:00 PM | #323 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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nah, busses are always on the right time
right?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
09-27-2005, 05:32 PM | #324 | |
of the House of FĂ«anor
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09-27-2005, 05:35 PM | #325 |
Elf Lord
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Oh, I see, now: like this enlightened attitude
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?cha...4583414B7F0000 Does that come with "Du vill do dis und du vill like it!" and a swastika on the side because it is "society's determination that this is 'right' "? Or does depriving people post-utero for NOT participating make it correct? Hmmm...when do morals really count? Inquiring minds want to know since this is on the other end of the forced abortions in China for society's good! edit: remember http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...103579,00.html
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 09-27-2005 at 05:36 PM. |
09-27-2005, 05:52 PM | #326 |
of the House of FĂ«anor
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What?
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09-27-2005, 09:42 PM | #327 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I've been wondering recently how long it will be until doctors will be forced to do abortions, even if they don't want to or more cleverly, they can't get their medical license unless they do some abortions ...
Open society, indeed! *snort*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
09-28-2005, 03:32 AM | #328 | |
Elf Lord
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It's an interesting question, though. What right should a doctor or pharmacist have to withhold treatment from a patient? What right should a patient have to demand a treatment that the doctor regards as unethical? Remember, this would affect contraception as well as abortion. IMO, the answer to both questions is "none". The patient should always have the right to go to a different professional to get the service they want. Certainly, that's the case in this country. |
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09-28-2005, 10:23 AM | #329 | |
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09-28-2005, 10:24 AM | #330 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Indeed but they should be familiar with the proceedure as it is necessary in some cases and desired in others; as the law permits.
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09-28-2005, 12:51 PM | #331 |
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Okay, here's al ittle personal history about "freedom" among doctors, particularly residents. It is merely an excerpt of a longer paper for a class.
Doctors can be forced, coerced, intimidated, and treated just like any other person. Spock, anyone who can do a D&C can do an abortion. As a person who cared for many complications of the local abortion clinic during 4 years of residency and 7.5 years after that attending the residency program, I've got plenty of experience to do the procedure or follow it up. The issue is whether I should be forced to provide services I find unethical. "The most disenfranchised members of our society are those in utero who, prior to Roe versus Wade, were protected members of society by statute in this country. The unborn since 1973 have been at the mercy of personal convenience in most acts of abortion in this country. The struggle began for me when interviewing for residency positions in my elected field of Obstetrics and Gynecology (Ob/Gyn). Of the ten potential sites in Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, and Tennessee to which I applied and at which I interviewed in 1983, I was flatly told at seven programs that the participation in elective abortion services was a requirement of the program and that my moral, ethical, and religious objections would not be tolerated or acceptable. (The usual phraseology was, âIf you feel that strongly about abortion, this is not the residency program for you.â) At two of the remaining sites, I was informed that, while there was not an absolute requirement to participate in elective abortion procedures, my failure to do so would put extra work on the residents who did work those clinics and thus strain the âcollegialityâ of the program. (The usual phraseology was âWe donât require our residents to perform abortions, but it is a service we provide. Your position would mean extra work for other residents.â) This left one residency program in which such participation was not a stated or de facto requirement. Thus, I was faced with the pervasive reality of abortion requirements in training for a specialty in medicine which ostensibly favored life. Most training programs paid public lip service to the moral, ethical, and religious sensibilities of the practitioners or residents but in reality required participation in providing elective abortions. Determined to become an Ob/Gyn and committing my way to the Lord, I rated those programs and submitted my list of choices for the match. The intervening months were months of much prayer and contemplation before the Lord in seeking to conform my will to what He would bring about for me. There was the frightening realization and possibility that I might not match in my desired area of medicine for two reasons. The first was that 70% of my potential programs were insistent on requiring the procedure for residents without provision for conscientious objection on any grounds and 20% of the programs would theoretically allow it but had no practical provision for such objections. I harbored no doubt that by bringing up the subject during interviews and being honest about my position, I had been effectively jettisoned from consideration in seven programs and severely limited in consideration for two others. That left one program out of the ten with which I could possibly match that would make provision for my conscientious objection to elective abortion. I was just as familiar then as I am now with putting all oneâs eggs in one basket, but I knew Who was in control and trusted to the best of my ability and then relied on faith. By grace I matched at the one program which did not require participation in elective abortion! Great was the rejoicing over that! When I received my Roanoke, Virginia match assignment, I was very pleased and greatly relieved, but not out of the woods completely. This particular program had a six-months- long external rotation at the University of Virginia Obstetrics and Gynecology Residency Program ostensibly in Oncology, Obstetrics, and Reproductive Endocrinology. There certainly did not appear to be any problem about abortion in those areas of training. But, in reality, I found out from residents who preceded me that Roanoke residents were expected to participate in providing abortion services by performing physical examinations upon prospective aborturients and placing laminaria in the cervix to initiate the process. I discussed this with my Residency Director who agreed to address the issue with the Director in Charlottesville. Thinking the matter dealt with, I entered my six-months rotation at UVA without any expectation of problems. None occurred until my first full weekend on call when I was called Sunday afternoon to perform a physical examination and place a laminaria on a patient scheduled for a D&C termination the next morning. This was an unexpected demand about which no forewarning had been provided by the off-going residents or upper level residents on call that weekend. Since this was my third year of residency that left appeal only to the Chief Resident on call and the covering attending. I do not know that this situation had been designed as a test consciously by the attendings and residents in Charlottesville, but it certainly felt so at the moment. I had to explain my stance to the Chief Resident who discussed it with the Attending. I then had to discuss it with the Attending. Those two conferred and I was informed by the Chief Resident that I should perform the physical exam and that he would come in to place the laminaria. Either my position had not been made known to the residents, or, more probably, they had forgotten. Since I did not consider that performing the physical was participatory in the abortion procedure any more than a pre-operative physical for an Attending patientâs hysterectomy I would not perform or even be present to assist in, I readily assented to this arrangement. The following day the Chief Resident and I went for a meeting out of the campus and had reason to discuss the issue. He stated that he had initially thought I was shirking work but that he appreciated my stance after our previous dayâs conversations and that the situation would not recur. I assured him that I would be willing to do the physicals but could not in good conscious take part in abortions except to save the life of the mother or in the presence of incompatible with life syndromes. We agreed to disagree about our stances and to work the agreed accommodation. Intriguingly enough, I was never again faced with even the need to do the physical examinations for potential aborturients while at UVA. "
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
09-28-2005, 12:58 PM | #332 | ||
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IMO and not for debate or argumentation, if a woman chooses to use the proceedure it's a doctors duty to see that it's performed safely. I understand your reservations and beliefs and hope that any woman needing such services goes to a facility with professionals who can and will help her.
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09-28-2005, 01:06 PM | #333 | |
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09-28-2005, 04:08 PM | #334 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thank you VERY much for that first-hand information, inked. From things I've read, I'm not at all surprised.
Since it's hard to boot out already-qualified doctors that don't want to do abortions, it looks like the battle is starting to shift to the med schools, where there's been pressure in some places to not grant a degree to anyone who has not participated in an abortion.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
09-28-2005, 04:11 PM | #335 | ||
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Inked, do you have a list of doctors that perform abortions (that you know and whose medical abilities you respect) that you can refer your abortion-minded patients to?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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09-28-2005, 04:32 PM | #336 | |
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09-28-2005, 04:45 PM | #337 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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that would be interesting to hear!
I'll try to find a reference for the med school thing.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
09-29-2005, 12:16 PM | #338 |
Elf Lord
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That's a very moving story, and congrats on sticking to your principles.
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09-29-2005, 12:30 PM | #339 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i was looking for info on med school practices and came across this article that gives an interesting perspective on what might occur if abortion was made illegal
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09-29-2005, 03:33 PM | #340 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I rarely post entire articles, but this has been concerning me for years - how in some states, abortion clinics are UNregulated and UNlicensed
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ĂĂĄ Ă«?* ĂłĂș Ă©Ă€ ĂŻĂ¶ĂŒ Ăñ Ă Ă Ă° Ă Âź ç Ă„ âą ĂŠ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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